US buildup in Persian Gulf

Quote from piezoe:

Libertad, i agree with your post in general. Your statement as follows:

It is very interesting to see two draft dodgers...namely Bush and Cheney ...want to lead the US military in the ME jaunt...

has caused me to re-think a position that i previously held. And that is that the draft dodgers i knew personally during the Vietnam war were, without exception, bright, highly capable, and exceptionally brave individuals with strong convictions. They would have made excellent military leaders had they been so inclined. I admired them then, and still do, for having the guts to do what they did. And that brings me to Bush, who is obviously not exceptionally bright, nor, as it turns out, highly capable, and doesn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary when it comes to leadership. Therefore my illusion is shattered, and i am forced to recognize that not all draft dodgers exhibit the qualities of intelligence, bravery, leadership, and honorable motives. Perhaps in Bush's case he was motivated more by selfishness and laziness.
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Piezoe

Conscientious objectors and draft dodgers are two entirely different people.

One driven by a deep sense of what is right and wrong, fair and just; and the other lead by his own fears for his personal safety. Not the safety of others, purely his own skin.

You can sleep well tonight after all.
 
Quote from hardyards:

Foolish response to a serious question TS.
Very very foolish.

You have now condemned yourself to being an author of rhetoric rather than an architect of considered thought.
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In who’s court?

OK you taunted me into it - now you must suffer me. Me thinks you will think twice before tossing the gauntlet next time. Such as it is now you are required to suffer two pages of prose since my response exceeds the posting page size limit. I break my response into two parts “Part 1” and “Part II”.

To-wit I give you:
Serious Response PART I

Don't be so quick to judge and condemn; Lucifer was tossed out of favor for that very same inequity. And some rumor that he is an integral part in all this same mess.

In my own defense consider that declining the invitation to respond to your taunt was not a matter of cowardice or foolishness but rather an honest attempt to spare the readership here another long missive that would require volumes to properly convey. And that would also spare me the labor of spending more precious uncompensated time (and life) than I currently have the luxury to give to ungrateful charity. Anyway, I never professed to have all the bits of a complete detailed plan. But I think you just want to argue anyway - that I can accommodate.

The basic gist of a plan that I can tell you is that in the larger context struggle is in fact necessary for the evolution of humanity. As such humanity et-al must resolve what it wants to be. We are currently in the "sorting and consideration" phase of this process and close to being forced by circumstances to resolve that decision in the next progressive step - for good or bad. But how much of a detailed plan is required in forced play when it's the same old dog-eared card game? Except for the very large ante and rapidly growing "pot" size nothing has really changed since Mohammad's protégée’s first compiled his notes to fabricate a social-business system from the widely scatted scraps of parchment, bone, leather, men’s tattoos and oral tradition. Essentially it was a simple system for shanghaiing those outside the tribe into his own business enterprise to incentivize growth and maximize power & wealth. Note the cleverness in finding a way to infinitely expand the down-line by defining all outsiders as Kafirs and making it morally acceptable to plunder and rape any of these. The Mohammedan system thus had a large base of non-believers to loot from. These evil victims were required to yield up all their possessions (and often their livestock, children and women) and convert to his club/tribe, or pay a regular homage to avoid certain death/execution. Those newly initiated where then permitted to share in the booty/profits as payment for assisting in raids with only one small caveat. That being lower caste Mohammedan’s (those ranked below his top lieutenants) had to pay a 20% tribute/homage to Mohammad’s Charity as dues for his profit sharing system. This was essentially a charity/insurance fund paid to the up-line sponsors to cover living costs of those maimed or widowed during the campaigns. No Mohammad was brilliant. Rather than kill one's enemies as was tradition at the time he give them the option to join the club or be executed (just like the pirate system). This same system is still in place.

So, if the objective of the West is simply to stay alive we should consider availing ourselves of Mohammad's clever system. Frankly it would be cheaper and result in less suffering for the West to lay down its archaic principals, capitulate, pay a regular homage and get on with life. But here in the West we have this thorny issue of principal that comes along with our liberties and freedoms and Judeo-Christian morality to deal with. But is it really principal or is really a matter of pride and does it matter which it is? We shall see.

As an aside:
Note, that given the plurality of the world cultures and value systems at work in the current global circumstance the outcome will not require the western democratic concept of "majority rule" to result in a binding pattern on the whole planet. No War and armed conflict has its own rules and subjugation is the normal pattern. Democracy only works when there is the luxury of relative peace to make it practical. Note also that history also sometimes shows that the conquered culture often rises up to adulterate the conqueror's to result in a forced marriage of compromise. Not my first choice, but there may be an alternative here for both sides. Current immigration of Islamics to the West and the rate of social "bending" & accommodation going on all over Europe suggest that is indeed the current Islamic plan or natural response. Yes, just like in Mohammad’s time, social intimidation seems to work well for them. The message the West has been given is clearly “pay us homage and accommodate us or suffer perpetual unrest and violence as we ourselves do”. So if anyone has not noticed, the West fights on two major fronts now - internal and external. At any rate, I also wanted to point out the curious and apparent contradiction of Democracy's champion (the US) imposing a non-democratic force of will in the mid-east region to bootstrap democracy. Ironic if not philosophically hypocritical no? But I am pragmatic on the matter and at least in this specific case believe the ends and motive may justify the means.

But you, hardyards, need to understand that your chastisement and diminutive judgemental assertions are seen here as an attempt to force me to pen a plan on my own nickel and time. This lacks a certain style and tells a thing or two about you. On this particular subject matter I assert it is precisely the same overbearing pattern of stubbornness and force that have lead to current circumstances between the West and Islamic systems; not that the West has not suffered the same from the Islamics. But we should ideally set the proper standard since we are the superior culture no? I think it is this precise western rashness and proclivity to embrace Aristotelian thought (intermixed with adolescent taunting & lack of respect) that leads to an escalation of the calamity we all now face. If interested more in solutions than points of debate we need to consider that such mechanisms are not the only conceptual pattern of problem-solving available. Not all things in this universe are cause-and-effect nor extend toward logical or even predictable outcomes. Nor are all problems humanity's to solve; and in a larger context not all things that result in discomfort to humanity are "problems" to Creation.

"Have a little faith baby". There are much bigger things than you or I at work in this area. I for one would not be surprised if the nature of "things" has its own embedded systemic of checks and balances. There are a lot of vested interests in ‘ol planet Earth & humanity besides the animals and peoples here; but that expressive may sound redundant. And it would seem likely that what is evolving operates to a calendar that is not limited to the time constraints of individual mortal heart-beats. We tend to quantize things in terms of our own individual mortal time frames. No doubt the tempo and planetary heart beat are orchestrated to the pendulum of generations. We individuals only play some small part - and rarely stay long to blurt our bit in the honored first chair position.


My assessment it that what we have currently is yet another showdown between the human potential to do "good" and the ever struggling human vices of greed, fear, embraced false doctrines/deceit/treachery, vanity, and pride. To overcome this current challenge requires humanity in the aggregate to fundamentally change at its core being. It is much more than simple force of will - we need to condition a new widely accepted natural reflexive behavior and new inner nature. At the fundamental individual level there is going to be great conflict and suffering in dealing with current anxieties. But what appears as calamity is also an opportunity to grow. That is the precise purpose of all anxiety - to create stress and to stimulate a stress adaptation. Should we embrace this opportunity for Humanity to grow?

I also think the matter needs to resolve to more than just compromise and learning to "get along". That naivety and trite idealism grows old and weathered and frankly is not respected by the other side. Fundamentally we have about an 800 year evolutionary gap that must be bridged between the two competing cultures and systems. They think it is we who need to step back and reset not they. Zooming out to a God’s eye view, humanity needs to reforge its common roots or cut-off the wild aberrations mutated or left behind from within the race. The Christian ideal is to go back and carry those that can’t keep up. But somehow I don’t see Arab pride willing to accept a helping hand from a Christian who they see as beneath them and a blasphemous polytheist (they parochially think the Christian notion of a triune God is blatantly false worship since in their fundamental world God is not capable of having but one relational dimension). Make no mistake about it they see Christians as evil and only a small step above heathens. No, as such,. they only want the West (which they equate to Christian) to sacrifice and die for them in solving their various conflicts. Then they want us to quietly go away and let them pick up again with their own dysfunctional culture to try it all over again. I am not pulling any punches here.


To be continued in Serious Response PART II
…
TS
 
Serious Response PART II

As such there is to be found no "right side" in this conflict since neither of the conflicted sides are purely right nor deserving of victory in a larger theological or idealistic sense. Rather what we have are custodial roles which proxy as agents for competing higher and lower visions, ideals or wills. Good vs Evil? You bet. Make no mistake about it, humanity is about to change; for better or worse whether it’s comfortable or convenient to do so now or not. Creation will simply not suffer humanities sluggish and lazy climb out of the womb too much longer. It's time for humanity to get onto bigger and better things or its going to be replaced with something else.

I will say that Aristotle does present a compelling idea of what we should hope to expect in his quote:
"If liberty and equality, as is thought by some, are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in government to the utmost.".

What remains to be seen is if humanity freely chooses of its own collective accord to embrace liberty and equality or if it must be forced by a few on all (The Islamic perspective). But what I know to be blasphemous to my own sensibilities if not my inner being is the notion of forcing those who chose to embrace their bondage out of necessity for life to kneel to the idealism of liberty and equality at the point of a saving champion’s sword.

What separates the Islamics from the West is that they are willing to slaughter their own to purify their ranks of those found to be capitulating away from expectation and standards simply to accommodate their own live and needs. Whereas the West, as an expression of respect for individual liberty and freedom, would just as soon be indifferent to those found within its ranks who are committed to the destruction or undermining of those same enjoyed liberties. In reality the West's error is in substituting freedom with indifference (or apathy) with no regard to responsibility. It has never formed a holistic vision and instead is self centered and focuses on a least common denominator individual view of liberty. That results in loss of focus and will and is easy prey to the highly focused views that Islam has. The West is content with “being” whereas Islam can’t rest and evolve until it becomes “all”. As a mock sacrifice to the ideal of freedom the West would just as soon cut off its nose to free it from the restraints imposed by the structure of its face. It tends toward self defeating behavior as an expression of its idealism. So, the West must resolve this philosophical defect and predisposition toward self-defeating behavior before it can ever successfully prosetlyze to the rest of the world.

I imagine that Moses had a difficult time when he tried to get the enslaved Jews to break camp from their tormenting Egyptian masters to embrace a greater vision and a better future. No doubt some slaves elected to use their first free vote to forgo the risks of freedom to stay behind (and later regretted it). But among the brave souls who voted to risk it all to go forward under his leadership some no doubt later regretted the chance for freedom as they suffered and perished along the way. Some lost faith and broke ranks to wander from the fold to who knows what end. Freedom is not without its price and risks. The concept I am presenting here is that no matter how good and lofty an ideal or pure a motive we can not force people to help themselves. There will always be moral cowards as well as bold pioneers among us. The West can be a catalyst for Freedom but ultimately it must be an organic and internal desire. We should also consider that Freedom is also a natural blessing arising from our Judeo-Christian beliefs. As such should we squander that blessing on a culture or anti-belief system that abhors it?

Nor do I think it is proper to take responsibility for other people's life choices. And all choices have consequences and often unintended consequence at that. But each individual has their given life that they alone are accountable for. If we are a freedom loving people we must respect the right of others to chose their own course without imposition of will. I suspect that freedom is something that needs to be earned and defended to keep. It not a gift that can be imposed or even given without a price; otherwise its not appreciated and is quickly lost at the first challenge (easy come easy go). As fallible humans we therefore take on terrible responsibilities to not cause greater harm or create a perpetual co-dependency anytime we offer to help another person by “giving” them freedom and do not stick around to see it through. I note also that there is no compassion to be found in nature – but perhaps that is what separates humans from animals and those animals masquerading as humans.

But the West can't simply remain in isolation and glib indifference to the radical divisions that currently exist between the Shia & Sunni Muslims nor the tensions between Israel and the region. We know that at some point indifference will result in actions leading to genocide of one or the others and inflame the entire region. This is against our own interests and is also conflicted with our own morality and beliefs about humanity. No, pragmatically, this internal Islamic conflict requires a decisive resolution and a clear dominant side to emerge if there is to be any level of general stability and sustainable peace on the planet. But beyond this internal Islamic conflict there is a final one that requires decisive resolution. Clearly, we would have no wars if compromise were a viable solution. The history has always shown thus far (by evidence of current national boundaries) that relative peace requires a dominant side. For now I'll leave it at that.

For the moment the West needs desperately to be careful of not becoming the world's task masters since that will unite all the world's lunatics as a cabal against us. Soon WMD will be widely available so the tempo for change quickens. The trade-space shrinks. What the Islamics & the rest of the world desperately need is a modern day Moses to sort out the mess that Mohammad & his followers started when he and his own incompetently fabricated a new business without preparing a well vetted succession plan. That has caused much of the conflict suffered internally to Muslims themselves. The West should not permit itself to be drawn into the gathering conflict that seeks to resolve that tension. If the West was really devious and evil (as its detractors purport) our "plan" would be simply to inflame Sunni off the Shia tensions and keep them weakened in perpetual conflict. But it’s become our tradition to meddle and put ourselves smack in the middle of these alien conflicts. Some would argue that what the world needs right now is less benevolent arbitration from the West and let these people have it out once and for all to resolve their differences one way or the other. After that – work with the victor.

Bottom Line:
My general plan is simple - to win at any cost. Anything short of that will sooner or later mean failure for the West and paying the ultimate cost (cultural death and/or subjugation). The Islamics must be shamed & ridiculed by someone highly respected internal to their own culture into seeing that they are acting as animals or at best as belligerent children. They must have their eyes opened to see the light that they are the ones who have been duped by self serving religious liars and they are themselves as Kafirs worthy of God’s own retribution. In fact, given the regions history and continued Islamic contempt and persecution of Jews & Christians I do not discount the possibility of great calamity of biblical proportions eventually befalling Islamic lands; recall the 10 plagues and yielding of the Roman Empire to the seat of Christianity.

The only avenue for a peaceful solution then is for the Islamics at large to accept responsibility for being humans, respecting life and others then embrace the truth. To recapture self respect and avoid global ridicule they must start contributing to humanity rather than putting the whole planet with all the rhetoric, deceit and contempt. They need to simply grow up and start respecting people and stop trying to force their archaic and often barbaric views on the rest of the world. Then they may join the rest of the planet and humanity productively towards it advancement rather than operating as a self combustible for violent change. No doubt the devil is in the details - and that is where I expect the big and decisive fight.

TS
 
You honestly expect someone to read all that? Most traders suffer from ADD.

Oh and btw, there's nothing Judeo about real Christian beliefs. Lest you forget, Christ didn't like the "Judeos" very much, that's why they had him nailed to a cross.
 
Quote from TrendSailor:

Serious Response PART II
What separates the Islamics from the West is that they are willing to slaughter their own to purify their ranks of those found to be capitulating away from expectation and standards simply to accommodate their own live and needs.
TS
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I will not quote all of this nonsense, but this bit is just a little bit too much to leave untouched.

When it comes to slaughter might I remind you that the "West" fought two absolutely horrendous World Wars in the last century. The generals and captains of industry and politicians had few qualms about the slaughter of millions upon millions of their own people. Make no mistake, these were very much Western wars. Nothing that any Islamic nation has done in that century can hold a candle to these atrocities. I suggest you rethink the moral purity of the West.

Your banging of the war drum is as old as time - and as old as imperialism. Demonize your enemies, hold them up not amenable to reason. Assert absolute faith in your moral superiority and march the suckers off to war.

It makes me want to puke.
 
Quote from dcraig:

I suggest you rethink the moral purity of the West.
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Who gives a fuck about moral purity, if this universe wasn't a loser there would exist no talk on morality.

Morality has been defined by some because of the weakness in the system (universe).

NUKE THE SHIT OUT OF IRAN AND ALL IRANIANS, they are nothing but worthless entities, they have devoted nothing useful to this world, if they do not exist we will not lose anything, but at least will gain their oil.
 
Quote from bluud:

Who gives a fuck about moral purity, if this universe wasn't a loser there would exist no talk on morality.

Morality has been defined by some because of the weakness in the system (universe).

NUKE THE SHIT OUT OF IRAN AND ALL IRANIANS, they are nothing but worthless entities they have devoted nothing useful to this world, if they do not exist we will not lose anything, but at least will gain their oil.
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Damn, Hitler is that you?! I thought the Jews were your main problem! LOL! :D
 
Well done TS, very well done indeed.
You have served yourself well.

Your discourse reminds me loosely of another place and time.

Rome 300AD and the Emperor Constantine
was having so much trouble from an ever growing group whose minds and therefore hearts were filled with notion that it was better to die than be forced to live in any circumstance other than the one of their calling.
Constantine embraced these people (Christians) in the belief that they would behave mas o menos within acceptable Roman ways and the trouble would abate.

But we will come back to this latter.

Skip forward 700 years and you have the Battle of Hastings.
Who cares less about a battle for control of a island with poor weather, even poorer food and bloody awful vino.
Well as it turns out, we all do because the formation of England eventually gave us the Balfour Agreement concerning Palestine followed a few years later by Winston Churchill's stroke of brilliance to cobble together three groups of people who hated each other and call the new nation Iraq.

Jump forward 3 centuries from 1066 into the Middle Kingdom (China)
The chinese civilization was by now so advanced that they contracted out their army because sons of the wealthy and middle class could no longer be conscripted reliably.
Well the contractors linked up with the Mongols and the rest is history.
It took the chinese 100 years to reclaim their country.

But now you are saying " holy shit batman" the US has cancelled conscription because the wealthy parents of conscriptees cause just too much trouble.
How many in the US army are 1st generation americans or soon to be nationalized citizens.
How many would blend into the Mexico City phonebook without a trace.
How many left their barrios for Iraq with only knife and handgun fighting skills learnt on the streets as children, to return home with the knowledge of
IED's.

Chicos, we have a problem.
Un problema muy grande.

And a voice from the US is going to cry out.
Hello, what about China.
Well what about China. where does she sit in this current ME mess.

First things to know about China.
She is ambitious for the No 1 slot.
She needs oil and has huge dollar reserves which she amassed by swapping trinkets in wal-mart.
She is not squeamish when it comes to doing the wet work.
A million lives here and there all for the greater cause is nothing.
Good lord, 3,000 dead soldiers in 4 years would slide under the radar.

And so back to our old mate Constantine and his successors.

Well, in short the Romans by now had contracted out their army and what with this, plus crushing taxes plus those pushy ungrateful ever demanding Christians meant that the Roman's took their eye off the ball.
The rest is history as we say and the once mighty empire of Roman collapsed.
"Barbarians at the gate"

Back to 2007 and China.
Just make bloody certain that you watch the big picture at all times and stay focused upon reality and by this I mean see the big picture through the other guys eyes.
Otherwise, you are toast and toast is what history is full of.

Just as a Trader has only 3 things to watch at all times.
Price, price and price.
Reality, reality and reality.
 
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