Unsuccessful trading with full-time job

[Laissez Faire]

Basically, you don't know what you're doing.

I day traded full-time the U.S. markets while working 100% and more as a carpenter.

I'd say the only way this would work is if you have your method down 100% and it's simply a matter of executing it during a reduced period of the trading day. It seems like you're still in the learning phase (which I also was) and in that case, you simply don't have enough time to do everything you need to do.

If I were to do it again, I would for example limit myself to the last 3 hours of the trading session and forget the open completely, even though the open is usually the best time period. If I don't really have the time to rest and prepare before the open (I used to come straight from work), I can't trade it regardless of that.

I was sleep deprived and spent my whole weekends studying and preparing. It does not work in the long run, especially if you're not getting paid for it.

The best and easiest money I ever made was by swing trading along with a full time job. I really raked in money there. Relatively speaking of course. All orders placed at EOD. Zero stress. If you feel like you don't have enough money to do so, then reduce your size. There's always something you can trade that can accomodate your account.

My advice:

1) Stop what you're doing and spend your time thinking about what you should do instead. If you want to continue day trading, make a plan and do all the research stuff you feel like doing before you resume day trading.

2) Have a long term perspective. Think at least 5 years. Wanting to make a KILLING with low capital on your first year is a not going to happen. It can happen. It happened with me. But it's rare. Simply being profitable is a great goal right now.

3) Choose an approach you can live with. Being sleep deprived is OKAY in the short term, but long term, it will kill you. It nearly killed me and I'm still suffering from the consequences.

4) Have something else in your life.

Good luck!

 

[nursebee]

What specifically do you want? What is your goal or end point?

How can you best get there?

Are your current methods working? What makes you think they can work?

 

[jb3398]

Quote from dbphoenix:

Excuses. Sorry. The central problem is that you have no plan. Your preferred "style" is important only insofar as your plan is tailored to accommodate it. But the market really couldn't care less what your preferences are. It's up to you to determine what the market's demands are and then determine what you're going to do to satisfy them.

If you have no idea how to put a plan together, this is a good starting point:

Great advice !!

 

[jb3398]

Quote from Laissez Faire:

Basically, you don't know what you're doing.

I day traded full-time the U.S. markets while working 100% and more as a carpenter.

I'd say the only way this would work is if you have your method down 100% and it's simply a matter of executing it during a reduced period of the trading day. It seems like you're still in the learning phase (which I also was) and in that case, you simply don't have enough time to do everything you need to do.

If I were to do it again, I would for example limit myself to the last 3 hours of the trading session and forget the open completely, even though the open is usually the best time period. If I don't really have the time to rest and prepare before the open (I used to come straight from work), I can't trade it regardless of that.

I was sleep deprived and spent my whole weekends studying and preparing. It does not work in the long run, especially if you're not getting paid for it.

The best and easiest money I ever made was by swing trading along with a full time job. I really raked in money there. Relatively speaking of course. All orders placed at EOD. Zero stress. If you feel like you don't have enough money to do so, then reduce your size. There's always something you can trade that can accomodate your account.

My advice:

1) Stop what you're doing and spend your time thinking about what you should do instead. If you want to continue day trading, make a plan and do all the research stuff you feel like doing before you resume day trading.

2) Have a long term perspective. Think at least 5 years. Wanting to make a KILLING with low capital on your first year is a not going to happen. It can happen. It happened with me. But it's rare. Simply being profitable is a great goal right now.

3) Choose an approach you can live with. Being sleep deprived is OKAY in the short term, but long term, it will kill you. It nearly killed me and I'm still suffering from the consequences.

4) Have something else in your life.

Good luck!

Bravo good advice on most points not all.

 

[austinp]

Quote from jl1575:

but I tend to trust him as he is not out there to solicit anything, but just to show

Of course he is soliciting something... he is selling this forum the same thing every other frequent trade-post guy-girl does with zero exceptions.

They are selling you recognition, praise, self-worth, self-esteem boost, affection, acknowledgment, peer acceptance, fame. All of the emotional capital that means more to most humans than money ever can.

Why do you think there are posters who sit here day after day for YEARS, posting "long this" and "short that" from behind their alias to other equally anonymous people? Is it some attempt to help others? No... because there is never any detailed explanations of how to repeat the process. Just vague references to this MP zone or that S/R level at random.

The people who post here are selling the concept that they deserve recognition & praise... a currency worth far more than mere cash, to most.

So any time you read anything posted here about trading success, you are being sold to. The only variance is currency, and the most honest posters by far are those who exchange time for cash. The others who exchange their time for your approvals are in general a complete waste of your time, when it comes to learning effective tactics on how YOU can make money in YOUR trading efforts.

Which of course is the only thing that matters for you

 

[jb3398]

I trade full time with a job. I work in IT and conduct trades from my Samsung Galaxy Note 2 PHONE !!!

Most of my trades are executed in the first hour, by 10:30 am I'm out. Unless my trail stop continues it momentum, at which point my trades will end once my trail has been executed.

Studying charts is hog wash, it helps about 25% of the time. If you aren't trading the same stock over an over don't swing trade! I have successfully swing traded stocks I watch consistently like FNMA (3.09). When all you have is $10K cash and 20K in buying power you have to trade lite. FNMA is a penny stock so you can only use cash if your trading retail. With a Prop firm (Series 56 license) it is more advantageous, you can trade margin. I grab 8000 shares of FNMA and let it move 2 cents and I trail it buy a penny. So I can average $160 a day x3 days which is $480 a week. Minus commission I earn about $400 weekly, with that one symbol from a phone. I trade other stocks as well, but for quick cash I use FNMA. You cant short penny stocks with retail accounts, so this is where prop trading pays off.

A full time job is the best thing to have. If you are trading retail your goal should be, deposit 10K in a retail account like Etrade, have 20K in buying power. Trade stocks between $10-20 dollars acquiring 1000 shares or better per trade, so when that stock moves .10cents you've earned $100 - commission $80. with 2000 shares you will take home $160. I am in a position now where I can save my salary and live off Etrade. My paychecks go untouched. Set a goal, mine is $500 a week, which I hit consistently. If I go over fine, however if I fall short by a few dollars so be it. A win is always better than a loss.

I don't trade everyday. At 9:30 I pull my screeners, look for Top Gainers, Top Loosers and Most Active! I pick one and run with it. If it is a looser I SELL, aka Short Sell. If it is a GAINER I Buy. I am now in the process of depositing all my paychecks into Etrade. So within 6 months I can have $25K in cash and bypass the PDT rule. I will continue the direct deposit indefinitely. As I need money for my personal account a simple wire transfer is all it would take.

I'm trying to figure out a way of trading with a prop firm using a mobile app. I prefer trading with a prop firm using 50-100:1 leverage, $300K or better. That way you can trade with one symbol like Amazon or Apple and get out a .50 cents. Which will earn you $300 or more a day. Once you have the capital at least $50K in cash increase your risk, for quick cash trade FOSL which can earn you $2K in 20 minutes very Volatile. However with FOSL you must set you stop to $1500. (doesn't mean it will execute at $1500 it could be more) Or you can trail by .30 cents after your in the black with $500 or better.

I know I covered a lot, however you don't need to study charts and markets before and after. That is for IRA accounts and long term investments like dividends. For swing traders all you need is quarterly hi & low's, to predict entrance and exit strategies. If it too high prepare to short, too low prepare to buy. I made a lot of my money on stocks that tanked 2 days in a row. I purchased that stock on the second day at 3:45 prior to Market closing, set a stop loss and usually cashed out pre-market or at opening with nice (huge) gains. I would still check my screeners at opening if I still had a few day trades left. Traded light for a quick $100 or better in the first hour and enjoyed the rest of my day.

I stay away from swing trades and day trade for small gains. However I still swing trade but not as often. If you want to increase you small gains. Increase your leverage (prop trade) because cash (retail) isn't always easy. Don't trade everyday. If I don't trade within the first hour, I don't trade period. I wait to trade another day.

 

[SIUYA]

Quote from th3moneytrain:

Currently, I'm trading/scalping weeklies for intraday moves because I cannot seem to get multi-day moves right. Also, multi-day moves require more capital and greater skill. So I scalp intraday, but as mentioned, the full-time job prevents successful scalping because of daily time constraints (can only trading 1 hr in morning).

[/B]

A question.....currently you are trading for intra-day moves.
but you end up scalping?
If so stop right there.....and as others suggest develop a plan for either scalping OR trading intraday moves based on what you want to do.
If you scalp with a profitable tested plan and watch the markets for 1 hour and there are no scalping opportunities - so what - go to work. Come back tomorrow. Then based on what you would have done later that night see if you would have made money had you been there all day. (be honest with yourself as denial is strong)
If you intraday trade with a profitable tested plan and find you need more action and hence meddle then fix that problem, by getting the trading style that suits what you want to do.

....but hey - as this advice is free it must be dishonest, unhelpful, and only given for my approval.

- if you prefer to keep sending your cash into the market - that works just as well for me.

 

[dbphoenix]

Quote from austinp:

Of course he is soliciting something... he is selling this forum the same thing every other frequent trade-post guy-girl does with zero exceptions.

They are selling you recognition, praise, self-worth, self-esteem boost, affection, acknowledgment, peer acceptance, fame. All of the emotional capital that means more to most humans than money ever can.

Why do you think there are posters who sit here day after day for YEARS, posting "long this" and "short that" from behind their alias to other equally anonymous people? Is it some attempt to help others? No... because there is never any detailed explanations of how to repeat the process. Just vague references to this MP zone or that S/R level at random.

The people who post here are selling the concept that they deserve recognition & praise... a currency worth far more than mere cash, to most.

So any time you read anything posted here about trading success, you are being sold to. The only variance is currency, and the most honest posters by far are those who exchange time for cash. The others who exchange their time for your approvals are in general a complete waste of your time, when it comes to learning effective tactics on how YOU can make money in YOUR trading efforts.

Which of course is the only thing that matters for you

Well said.

If whoever you're reading isn't telling you exactly HOW and WHY he's entering a trade, you're reading fiction. Why people weave these tapestries may be a subject for extensive discussion, but none of it will make you a dime.

Aside from the ethics of cheating one's employer, can one trade at work? Yes. Can one make any money doing it? Of course not. If one wants to make money trading, he has to put in the work. But only a very few are willing to do the work. Thus those who frequent these forums transition from extreme gullibility to extreme skepticism without ever having bothered to do any actual work other than reading posts.

If whomever you're reading has been at this for two or three or five or ten years and still isn't making anywhere close to a living at it, you're being fed a line of bull. Study the market. Develop a plan. Test it. Develop it further. Trade it. Tweak it. Anything else is a complete waste of time.

 

[wrbtrader]

Quote from th3moneytrain:

Most of your points hit on trading and full-time job not being compatible. I agree. However, I wonder if somebody here has mastered the art of part-time trading.

When you were doing it part-time, what were your strategies? How much time would you put into it? How would you manage your trades when you had school/work? Were you successful?Basically, what worked for you then?

When you were doing it part-time, what were your strategies?

This entire forum is full of strategies (in-depth details) by traders that said the strategy works for them. Simply, just do some research and scroll down the forum after you log in. You'll see sections called like Options, Order Execution, Trade Management, Strategy Design and many other threads that may or may not be of interest to you.

Note: Just because it worked for them doesn't imply it will work for you.

If you can't find something specific that you're looking for...use the search function here @ http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/search.php?s=

You just need to spend a lot of time reading/learning/testing to develop your own trading style instead of expecting someone here at ET to do it for you without really knowing if the problem is really your method, just you or a combination of both.

How would you manage your trades when you had school/work?

The same way I task manage everything else in my life. It was simple. I didn't study at work. I didn't try to do work at school. I didn't trade while in class. I didn't trade when I needed to do homework or prepare for an exam. I didn't trade when at work. I didn't ask the boss for extra hours when I could be trading.

If I was in a trade and it was time to go to class, time to go to work, time to do homework, time to go to sleep, time to go exercise, time to fool around with my girlfriend...

Use stop/loss protection (I intended posted this first after the girlfriend statement above).

Were you successful?

Yes, I was successful. In order of importance....good grades in college, good employee when I went to work, good relationship with my girlfriend and made profits when trading.

My point above, if you're going to be multitasking, I think it will help if you prioritize your life to prevent from getting lost...seriously. Therefore, considering you only mention your job and trading as if there wasn't an issue with anything else in your life...if trading is more important than your job, another option to consider is that you get a different job that allows you to put in the proper time to study the markets and doesn't conflict with your trading. In fact, there's several ET members that did exactly that because trading was that important to them...they got a different job that was compatible to their trading schedule.

 

[RichardRimes]

Quote from th3moneytrain:

Thanks for the response. Some things I'd like to say and ask regarding your response: 1) An 8 hr job is actually much longer than 8 hrs. Roughly I do 1 hr commute, 1 hr getting ready, 1 hr lunch...makes it a 11 hr endeavour. But I understand your point. 2) I trade Options on equities only. And it's very difficult to put trailing stops due to whipsaws. How do people go about trading w/o watching? Any suggestions for me? 3) How much would you consider is a good amount of capital to trade options? Of course, I understand that the type of trades you make determine the amount of capital needed, but let's just say that I want to make $3000 per month. 6) Do trade with or without scripting/coding?

As for the rest of it, I will take note of it, thanks.

1) The issue with work is more mental. Can you turn/tune your mind to trading easily during your hours of commute/getting ready/lunch? Or is your job so demanding that you can't focus on trading during your down time?

2) switch to futures options..ES, CL, TF, or others. The ES is suitable for the retail trader just be very aware of the margin structure, need to be very disciplined. You can set up trades like strangles on them and not have to micro manage them, can make adjustments even when market is closed.

3) 25K per 1 option contract, 30K if doing a strangle...don't set $$ goals until you understand what you are doing...let it happen. Sometimes goals become handcuffs.

6) I don't script or code...just have a lifetime of experience and an amazing platform that does all of that for me. I can look at any study and easily visualize option strategies and intuitively know what it will do or not do for me.