Unethical Conduct by IB

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I can see how this happened to traderguy- I have cancelled a number of orders, and it seems to take *forever* for that red light to appear, and for the order to disappear. I've never had a problem cancelling orders, but have felt the system is prone to this kind of error.

Quote from jimrockford:

Htrader,
let me first note that I have great respect for your postings and opinions and your presentation of facts, and I always look forward to reading a post with your name on it.

It is not true that cancelled orders always disappear from the TWS. This is a user-selectable option. I don't allow my cancelled orders to disappear automatically. I don't want a cancelled order to disappear until I see the red code confirming I am out. This is why I set my TWS to keep cancelled orders displayed until I first observe them and then hit a hotkey to clear them manually from the TWS.

I seem to recall reading, in IB documentation, that the disappearance of an order from the TWS does not imply that a cancellation request was successful, and that the customer is still responsible for making sure he receives a confirmed out on an order, even after it disappears from the TWS. If you have contrary information, that the customer may rely on the automatic disappearance of an order, from the TWS, as confirmation that a cancellation request was successful, then I would very much appreciate your educating me by providing me with a pointer to the source of your info, so that I can verify it. I would also then owe an apology to the originator of this thread.
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I don't like IDEAL pro, I made a few trades
and there was fishy stuff going on, executions would take forever, the spreads were scary at times, and the stop logic I didn't like it either.

When in doubt , call
 
Quote from jimrockford:

It is irresponsible to issue a request to cancel an order, and then to just forget about it, before receiving confirmation that the cancellation request was successful. It is irresponsible to trade without knowing how the trading platform would represent such a confirmation to the customer. I would also that IB's generally poor documentation is also an example of irresponsibility, and that it may have contributed to the customer's failure to catch it immediately, instead of 40 minutes later when the trade notification reached his TWS.
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It seems to me you are making an assumption here about what he did, and then running with that assumption. What the trader said was "Everything showed that the order was canceled successfully an I did not get filled. By everything, I mean the order on the main window showed that it was canceled and then it went away, Book Trader showed that I had no position, and the account window showed that I had no position. " He didn't "forget about it" as you say. He said later he simply couldn't remember if he saw a red. That is quite different than just "forgetting about it", going away, and then being hit with the unexpected.
 
The User's Guide states that "Once the order is confirmed canceled, the Order Management line will disappear from your trading screen after 30 seconds."

There is also a refernce to the Customer Agreement but the link didn't work for me.
 
Quote from fhl:

It seems to me you are making an assumption here about what he did, and then running with that assumption. What the trader said was "Everything showed that the order was canceled successfully an I did not get filled. By everything, I mean the order on the main window showed that it was canceled and then it went away, Book Trader showed that I had no position, and the account window showed that I had no position. " He didn't "forget about it" as you say. He said later he simply couldn't remember if he saw a red. That is quite different than just "forgetting about it", going away, and then being hit with the unexpected.
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If IB's TWS showed the order still in action and not cancelled then the case for "Unethical Conduct" has not been made. Lets wait and see what the audit log showed as you should be able to tell from that.

Not saying I wouldnt be pissed if I had a slap that seemed out of my control but we don't know if the order was shown as cancelled. After some confusion about 6 months back I now look for the red to occur and I know that the original poster will from now on - and if it doesn't he'll be on the phone immediately.

If the TWS was setup properly and the order did go away though I think that IB should be covering the cost of the "trade".
 
it is relatively easy to confirm (double confirm) that a cash forex order has been filled

after every trade, open up your account balance window and see what your position is.

if you went short EUR/USD , 1 lot, for instance, you would see the corresponding position in long EURodollars and short USDollars.

like

100,000 EUR
-140,000 USD
or whatever the exchange rate is. as long as that shows up in yer account window, you were definitely filled

also, to see if you have pending orders, look at the pending orders page. don't just assume, since an order is not on your current window, that it was filled or cancelled
 
it is relatively easy to confirm (double confirm) that a cash forex order has been filled.
after every trade, open up your account balance window and see what your position is.
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Account window will only show correct values when the execution report is not delayed (or missing).
 
As usual, I land somewhere in the middle, if anyone cares :)

If you cancel what appears to be a live order, and IB gets anything but a cancel confirm from the exchange, the status goes magenta, and the order stays on your screen at least until you log out and back in, and usually until the nightly clearing cycle is over. When I cancel an order, I can say that I would not have any "independent recollection" (in a true legal sense) that I saw it go red - just that it disappeared, which is the only situation under which it could disappear if not filled.

OTOH...

I didn't see whether the order was marketable or not at the time it was entered, or what happened to the market while it was live. Generally, to protect myself, I pay very close attention to what happens when I submit a marketable order to an electronic exchange, since it theoretically should always be filled. If I'm somehow able to cancel it without getting a fill, I'll usually follow up with the broker to make sure I get them to give me either a fill or an "out", which I note on my blotter. This could be difficult with IB, though they will sometimes call the exchange to do it manually. I know that other brokers, having given me a verbal "out", have absorbed a trade into their error account even when it was finally reported late, as I believe is traditional industry practice. That is, if they're willing to give you an out, it's because they're willing to take the risk to get your continued business.

Now, as to whether a red status and/or the order disappearing, is considered an out at IB, I believe it should be, and that a reasonable person should be able to rely on it.
 
I always keep an editor with the days Audit file loaded and at the bottom of the screen. If I need a confirmation of a fill or cancel I just pop the file up, refresh and check it out. You can obviously use the button on TWS but I find my way faster. I bet I do this 20 times a day especially with cancels that look like they should have filled. The Audit is the bottom line with all the time, price, routing and confirmation codes. Anything mysteriously happening outside of the Audit is likely exchange or ECN in origin. Amex is famous for this kind of fill regeneration well after all seemed well and done.
If the exchange changes the status of your fill or cancel and it is not in the audit you have a real beef to pursue. Broken and erroneous trades are legitimate revisions that can occur. Spontaneous regurgition of a fill ( always seem to be against client:)) is very contestable.
 
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