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Unethical Conduct by IB
- Thread starter TRADERguy
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Quote from fhl:
dunbar said:
"The fact that IB's TWS gives a "Pink" indication that a cancel out is not confirmed is a very big leg up for the trader."
True enough, but the order should also stay pink until a resolution, which IBJ seems to be hedging against in his explanation to aainthebeltway. In that post, IBJ seemed to emphasize that something he called rule 1 prevailed, meaning that a customer could get filled anytime whether the order is still present in it's pink form or not. If an order has not been cancelled, it should stay on the screen until a position change is indicated. That only seems fair.
Actually, I believe IBj is saying that TraderGuy failed to interpret Pink and Pink remained on TWS during the times in question.
IBJ: -at 10:01:54 there is a OrderCancelRequest for my limit order to sell at 1.24735 agree there is a request to cancel. At the time the cancel was first sent, the bid on USD/EUR is higher than the limit price of 1.24735. According to the internal audit trail (i.e. the ones on IB servers as opposed to the ones at the TWS), the order is never confirmed out. We received the cancel request and relayed it to the bank where the order was sent every 30 secs starting at 10:01:54.891 and ending at 10:37:55.299. On the TWS, this showed a 'pink' status bar.
[client]did not properly interpret color status indicators. Documentation on these are available in the TWS Users Guides at: http://www.interactivebrokers.com/p...htm#OrderStatus
IBSOFT: I will add a clarification to this: There is no way to configure the tws in such a way that the unack(knowleg)ed orders fall off the screen. In other words, the pink ones remain displayed.
Quote from ddunbar:
Actually, I believe IBj is saying that TraderGuy failed to interpret Pink and Pink remained on TWS during the times in question.
IBJ: -at 10:01:54 there is a OrderCancelRequest for my limit order to sell at 1.24735 agree there is a request to cancel. At the time the cancel was first sent, the bid on USD/EUR is higher than the limit price of 1.24735. According to the internal audit trail (i.e. the ones on IB servers as opposed to the ones at the TWS), the order is never confirmed out. We received the cancel request and relayed it to the bank where the order was sent every 30 secs starting at 10:01:54.891 and ending at 10:37:55.299. On the TWS, this showed a 'pink' status bar.
[client]did not properly interpret color status indicators. Documentation on these are available in the TWS Users Guides at: http://www.interactivebrokers.com/p...htm#OrderStatus
IBSOFT: I will add a clarification to this: There is no way to configure the tws in such a way that the unack(knowleg)ed orders fall off the screen. In other words, the pink ones remain displayed.
Yes, I get all this, but traderguy said the order was gone from his screen. It's difficult to visualize how he misinterpreted a pink order as one that was gone... as in not there anymore.
Quote from tomcole:
IMHO, its more interesting to see how IB treats customers when a problem pops up in a public forum.
It is interesting isn't it? The fact that they take time to address a client in such a public and detailed manner. Seems above and beyond to me. Also seems fairly done. BUt the "fairly done" is my assessment. This thread has provided invaluable information. Many things I wouldn't have considered unless I fell into this situation myself. And a few things which have been made clear to me that weren't so clear from my admittedly cursory reading of the TWS manual.
Quote from fhl:
Yes, I get all this, but traderguy said the order was gone from his screen. It's difficult to visualize how he misinterpreted a pink order as one that was gone... as in not there anymore.
A case of who's right and who's wrong? I have to go with the software designers and the transcripts/logs/trails because that I can rely on for my own personal benefit. (TraderGuy did say, "I don't remember" when the question was put to him.)
In any event, it's possible that the pink turned black(order filled) and subsequently disappeared @ 10:01.
This leads me to think that perhaps that might have been the case:
IBJ: Order actually executed at 10:01:33 but was not reported back by liquidity provider to IB until 10:38:23.847 (per our internal audit trail). IB reported onward to client immediately (in a fraction of a second)
Maybe a new color is needed for this sort of instance. A "too-late-to-cancel-you've been executed" flag. But in the preceding paragraph where this quote was taken from, IBj states that the TWS screen remained pink for this order.
Quote from ddunbar:
A case of who's right and who's wrong? I have to go with the software designers and the transcripts/logs/trails because that I can rely on for my own personal benefit. (TraderGuy did say, "I don't remember" when the question was put to him.)
In any event, it's possible that the pink turned black(order filled) and subsequently disappeared @ 10:01.
This leads me to think that perhaps that might have been the case:
IBJ: Order actually executed at 10:01:33 but was not reported back by liquidity provider to IB until 10:38:23.847 (per our internal audit trail). IB reported onward to client immediately (in a fraction of a second)
Maybe a new color is needed for this sort of instance. A "too-late-to-cancel-you've been executed" flag. But in the preceding paragraph where this quote was taken from, IBj states that the TWS screen remained pink for this order.
I'm not at all sure the audit trail said the order was pink, but rather this was IBj's written narative of his conclusion. The audit trail traderguy had given previously didn't say anything about a pink order. Yes, maybe a new color is needed, but in any case there should be something on the screen to indicate what's going on, not a blank line.
AFAIK, there is no need for another status. If you send a cancel, the status either goes red or pink. Red orders get cleaned up and disappear automatically if you configure TWS to do so.
If an order stays pink for any significant period of time on an electronic exchange, there's a problem. I don't think we ever got a confirmation, though, that such an order should not disappear from TWS, perhaps barring unusual events like disconnections, etc. IBj: Is this correct?
BTW: At the risk of being called an IB apologist, I was impressed by IBj's detailed public explanation.
If an order stays pink for any significant period of time on an electronic exchange, there's a problem. I don't think we ever got a confirmation, though, that such an order should not disappear from TWS, perhaps barring unusual events like disconnections, etc. IBj: Is this correct?
BTW: At the risk of being called an IB apologist, I was impressed by IBj's detailed public explanation.
Quote from lwlee:
Geez, that sucks. Makes the case for trading currency futures stronger.
I have to say that is my takeway from this. A bank can hold your order for 30 minutes, and there's nothing you can do about it? Because they are afraid someone might game them, when they created the problem in the first place? No thanks.
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
I have to say that is my takeway from this. A bank can hold your order for 30 minutes, and there's nothing you can do about it? Because they are afraid someone might game them, when they created the problem in the first place? No thanks.
Well... I've been trading Forex for a while. Half of that time with IB. Sure, Forex is the wild west, but I haven't had the kind of problems that would make me even begin to think about trading Forex futures.
TraderGuy's problem is sort of unique and wouldn't really be an issue with the style of trading I do with Forex. I've never had to do a last minute cancellation. A few changes to a limit order to exit maybe. But the market wasn't close enough that I'd have to worry that I might not get a fill or cancel/change.
I'm not sying that to minimize TraderGuy's experience. I'm just saying that his experience shouldn't be used as anything indicative of the average Forex trading experience.
Quote from tomcole:
If it takes 37 minutes to report a fill and IB blames it on DB, I'd simply tell them you DK the trade, close your account and sue them for the money. Sounds like IB and DB should make it up to you.
Your lawyer will subpoena everyone's records for a deposition. Once IB and DB see you're serious, I would guess they settle quickly.
IMHO, at worst, its mutual error and you can split the amount, but you should never have to wait that long for a notification.
If all the players point at their docs and say, "Tough luck", tell them they know the risks of trading and a 38 minute delay appears to be negligent. See you in court.
Depending on the size of this guys loss, I totally agree. The financial industry runs rampant while trampling the little guys so the big guys can make a buck. When someone loses money because of a platform/brokerage issue, the company calls it an "inherent risk in trading," and they're not liable. Of course, if they forgot to get you on a commission one day, they would surely do it the next.
We traders and customers need to start voting with our money, and if required, our lawyers. If you're going to run such a business, sometime's reimbursing clients for problems with your system is just the price of doing business.
If your platform does not indicate you have a position open or an order open, then you shouldn't have either. If you do, THEY screwed up. It's prudent to double check, of course, but failure to double-check is not the cause of the problem.
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