Under the shadow of the Iraq war, Israel practices asassination....

[50 cent]

Quote from ARogueTrader:


No reasonable person volunteers for victimization, which is exactly what was done by the Zionists when they were inspired to recapture and settle in the "Holy Lands."



If lambs go into lions dens, and scream that they are being attacked by the lions, why should we have sympathy for them?

The Zionists don't scream that they are being attacked. Rather it is the Arabs ("the lions") who scream.

And then you come and symphasize with "the lions", that are being attacked by the "wild eyed crazies", which are suddenly defined by you as "the lambs". According to your rhetoric, it is the lambs that occupy the lions. ???????

You keep contradicting yourself over and over again.

By now it is very apparent that your only cause is nothing more than getting attention at all costs, even at the cost of exposing your stupidity. That you practice high English does not hide the extremely low level of the content of what you are actually saying. Not to mention that you contradict yourself over and over again, and the funny thing is that you don't even notice it! Or perhaps you do notice it but you simply gloat with pleasure that you are finally getting some attention.

Anyway, I call everyone here to stop answering this guy because we are falling right into his hands. The mere fact that we bother to reply to him is what he derives pleasure from.

I call everyone to stop pleasing this guy, let him find attention and symphathy among his terrorist friends.

So long
50

 

[ARogueTrader]

Ahhhh, so YOU have the CORRECT understanding of Islam and know with absolute certainty what Mohamed did. You have historical records written by historians, recorded on video tape, never translated, nor interpreted by Christian bias.

You have that magical understanding of what happened nearly 1500 years ago. You have the original manuscripts that Mohamed himself wrote, you have the original notes of those embedded reporters who followed Mohamed daily and objectively and accurately reported only fact.

Or do you just pray to the God of your understanding and he reveals the TRUTH of Islam and Mohamed's intentions to you?

That would put you on the same level as the prophet Mohamed, wouldn't it.

One religion bashing another religion, how novel.

Yesiree, and Revelations is a mathematical formula clear as a sunny day.

Casting stones is the way of Christianity.

All those Muslims who don't murder Americans, who live in America, who live peacefully with Christians and Jews must be going to hell for their betrayal of Mohamed's "words."

You are just another literalist who interprets according to your own religiousness and bigoted bias.

Quote from Rearden Metal:

Ugh...not this shit again. <b> For the last time, the prophet Mohammad was a much bigger terrorist than Bin Laden could ever dream of becoming.</b>
Bloodthirsty Islamic terrorists are not 'perverting' the teachings of Islam- they are following it to the letter!

 

[spect8or]

Quote from ARogueTrader:

I don't personally think anyone who advocates killing is an apostle of Mohamed, nor Jesus, nor Buddha, etc.

That is why I prefer to take religion out of the issue, and just deal with criminals on the level of common law and common sense, not on the basis of religious principles.

War on religious principles is a war of self righteousness.

Dude, it's you that kept making the references to religion on here. Neither I nor darkhorse nor 'Boat nor anyone else on 'our side' has been using religion as the excuse. Yet, if the religious angle needs to be inspected anywhere in this debate, it surely the influence of Islam. How you can come on here and debate Israel without being aware of the extremist Islamic anti-jewish teaching, emanating from leading religious scholars and religious leaders throughout the Arab world, is unbelievable. Is there anything comparable in the christian world of today? That enjoys the same mass popular support? Come on, let's be serious here!

 

[ARogueTrader]

For the open minded, this is worth a read:

War on Iraq - Conceived In Israel


Here are some snippets:

In a lengthy article in The American Conservative criticizing the rationale for the projected U.S. attack on Iraq, the veteran diplomatic historian Paul W. Schroeder only noted in passing 'what is possibly the unacknowledged real reason and motive behind the policy - security for Israel.' If Israel's security were the real American motive for war, Schroeder went on: 'It would represent something to my knowledge unique in history. It is common for great powers to try to fight wars by proxy, getting smaller powers to fight for their interests. This would be the first instance I know where a great power (in fact, a superpower) would do the fighting as the proxy of a small client state.'1 Is there any evidence that Israel and its supporters have managed to get the U.S. to fight for its interests?

======================================

To understand why Israeli leaders would want a Middle East war, it is first necessary to take a brief look at the history of Zionist movement and its goals. Despite public rhetoric to the contrary, the idea of expelling the indigenous Palestinian population (euphemistically referred to as a 'transfer') was an integral part of the Zionist effort to found a Jewish national state in Palestine. 'The idea of transfer had accompanied the Zionist movement from its very beginnings, first appearing in Theodore Herzl's diary,' historian Tom Segev observes. 'In practice, the Zionistists began executing a mini-transfer from the time they began purchasing the land and evacuating the Arab tenants ... ''Disappearing'' the Arabs lay at the heart of the Zionist dream, and was also a necessary condition of its existence ... With few exceptions, none of the Zionists disputed the desirability of forced transfer - or its morality.' However, the Zionist leaders learned not to publicly proclaim their mass expulsion intent because 'this would cause the Zionists to lose the world's sympathy.'4 The key issue was to find an opportune time to initiate the mass expulsion process that would not incur the world's condemnation. In the late 1930s, Ben-Gurion would write: 'What is inconceivable in normal times is possible in revolutionary times; and if at this time the opportunity is missed and what is possible in such great hours is not carried out - a whole world is lost.'5 The 'revolutionary times' would come with the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948, when the Zionists were able to expel 750,000 Palestinians (more than 80 percent of the indigenous population), and thus achieve an overwhelmingly Jewish state, though the area did not include the entirety of Palestine, or the 'Land of Israel', which Zionist leaders thought necessary for a viable state. The opportunity to grab additional land took place as a result of the 1967 war; however, the occupation of the additional territory brought the problem of a large Palestinian population. World opinion was now totally opposed to forced population transfers, equating such an activity with the unspeakable horror of Nazism. The landmark Fourth Geneva Convention, ratified in 1949, had 'unequivocally prohibited deportation' of civilians under occupation.6 Since the 1967 war, the major issue in Israeli politics has been what to do with that territory and its Palestinian population.

 

[ARogueTrader]

So religion is absent from the reality of this situation from both sides?

Quote from spect8or:

Dude, it's you that kept making the references to religion on here. Neither I nor darkhorse nor 'Boat nor anyone else on 'our side' has been using religion as the excuse. Yet, if the religious angle needs to be inspected anywhere in this debate, it surely the influence of Islam. How you can come on here and debate Israel without being aware of the extremist Islamic anti-jewish teaching, emanating from leading religious scholars and religious leaders throughout the Arab world, is unbelievable. Is there anything comparable in the christian world of today? That enjoys the same mass popular support? Come on, let's be serious here!

 

[spect8or]

Quote from ARogueTrader:

Ahhhh, so YOU have the CORRECT understanding of Islam and know with absolute certainty what Mohamed did. You have historical records written by historians, recorded on video tape, never translated, nor interpreted by Christian bias.

You have that magical understanding of what happened nearly 1500 years ago. You have the original manuscripts that Mohamed himself wrote, you have the original notes of those embedded reporters who followed Mohamed daily and objectively and accurately reported only fact.

Or do you just pray to the God of your understanding and he reveals the TRUTH of Islam and Mohamed's intentions to you?

That would put you on the same level as the prophet Mohamed, wouldn't it.

One religion bashing another religion, how novel.

Yesiree, and Revelations is a mathematical formula clear as a sunny day.

Casting stones is the way of Christianity.

All those Muslims who don't murder Americans, who live in America, who live peacefully with Christians and Jews must be going to hell for their betrayal of Mohamed's "words."

You are just another literalist who interprets according to your own religiousness and bigoted bias.

How dumb are you man? Are you that unaware of the Islamic scholars who have supported the more violent interpretations of Islam? Your desperate hope to attach moral equivalence to all sides is clouding your ability thinking straight.

Furthermore, how many Arabs have you ever known? I have had dozens of close Arab friends. Some I have been so close with that we did everything together; I ate at their place, slept there, was invited to their weddings etc. These are your 'normal' everyday, hardworking, trying-to-make-a-better-life-in-the-west Muslims. Do you have any idea of the extent to which they agree with the position of groups like Hamas and Hezbollah (that seek to obliterate Israel)? Of the absurd theories of Israeli world-domination they outright believe? Of the 'suck shit America' attitude they had to 9/11? No, they wouldn't go out and do terrorism (at least, I highly, highly doubt it) -- like I said, these are normal, pretty well off actually, people -- but yes, absolutely yes, they agree with so much of what the extremists do it is scary. I would make a hefty wager that this is normal thinking for the majority of the world's muslims.

 

[spect8or]

Quote from ARogueTrader:

So religion is absent from the reality of this situation from both sides?

What are you about ART? Scoring points? Stop wasting everyone's time will ya? It's clear you've gone too far now and it'd hurt your ego too much to admit you've been spouting bs, so just leave it alone huh?

"That is why I prefer to take religion out of the issue, and just deal with criminals on the level of common law and common sense, not on the basis of religious principles."


So which is it, ART? Do you want to include the religious angle, or don't you?

A better idea, just go for a walk or have a coffee or something and admit to yourself that maybe your desperate hope to aportion blame equally (it's obvious, man, really) may not be the best way to look at this issue.

 

[ARogueTrader]

That the Muslims you knew were brainwashed into hate by religious leaders is not surprising.

Many good Christians in this country hated (and still do hate) Blacks, homosexuals, minorities, Jews, Indians, etc.

As I recall, quite a number of indigenous "Americans" were displaced to advance our "Democracy."

Christianity hardly has a fully peaceful, loving, and accepting history.

That one religion hates another religion is nothing new, is it?

Is the cause of that hatred and mind conditioning by religious leaders, who twist "scripture" to fit their agenda an act of God, or an act of man?

The problem has its roots in ignorance, mind conditioning, knee jerk reactions, excessive emotionalism, fanaticism, etc.

How do you combat that?

By killing all of them?

By become equally emotionally, equally fanatical, equally hateful?

Is that what YOUR religion teaches you?

Quote from spect8or:

How dumb are you man? Are you that unaware of the Islamic scholars who have supported the more violent interpretations of Islam? Your desperate hope to attach moral equivalence to all sides is clouding your ability thinking straight.

Furthermore, how many Arabs have you ever known? I have had dozens of close Arab friends. Some I have been so close with that we did everything together; I ate at their place, slept there, was invited to their weddings etc. These are your 'normal' everyday, hardworking, trying-to-make-a-better-life-in-the-west Muslims. Do you have any idea of the extent to which they agree with the position of groups like Hamas and Hezbollah (that seek to obliterate Israel)? Of the absurd theories of Israeli world-domination they outright believe? Of the 'suck shit America' attitude they had to 9/11? No, they wouldn't go out and do terrorism (at least, I highly, highly doubt it) -- like I said, these are normal, pretty well off actually, people -- but yes, absolutely yes, they agree with so much of what the extremists do it is scary. I would make a hefty wager that this is normal thinking for the majority of the world's muslims.

 

[ARogueTrader]

I do prefer to take religion of of the issue.

Let's look at Israel and their entire history independent of our own personal religious beliefs.

You think that is possible?

Are we taught as a society that Israel is Good, Arabs Bad? Are we taught the Jews are the "chosen" people?

Are we free from our own religous conditioning, such that we see objectively?

Do we really know all the facts?

How many Americans fully research the issue?

Why does Europe have such a different perspective on the matter?

There are so many questions that deserve research and answers, but the problem is that many of the answers will trace back to religious fundamentalism, of both the Christian and Jewish variety, that people don't want to go there.

If we take religion out of the equation, why did the Brits and the rest of the civilized world condemn the recent attacks by Israel, but he US refused to do so?

What is this "special" love affair that we have, that blinds us to Israel's actions?

Quote from spect8or:

What are you about ART? Scoring points? Stop wasting everyone's time will ya? It's clear you've gone too far now and it'd hurt your ego too much to admit you've been spouting bs, so just leave it alone huh?

"That is why I prefer to take religion out of the issue, and just deal with criminals on the level of common law and common sense, not on the basis of religious principles."


So which is it, ART? Do you want to include the religious angle, or don't you?

A better idea, just go for a walk or have a coffee or something and admit to yourself that maybe your desperate hope to aportion blame equally (it's obvious, man, really) may not be the best way to look at this issue.

 

[Rearden Metal]

Quote from ARogueTrader:

Ahhhh, so YOU have the CORRECT understanding of Islam and know with absolute certainty what Mohamed did. You have historical records written by historians, recorded on video tape, never translated, nor interpreted by Christian bias.

You have that magical understanding of what happened nearly 1500 years ago. You have the original manuscripts that Mohamed himself wrote, you have the original notes of those embedded reporters who followed Mohamed daily and objectively and accurately reported only fact.

Or do you just pray to the God of your understanding and he reveals the TRUTH of Islam and Mohamed's intentions to you?

That would put you on the same level as the prophet Mohamed, wouldn't it.

One religion bashing another religion, how novel.

Yesiree, and Revelations is a mathematical formula clear as a sunny day.

Casting stones is the way of Christianity.

All those Muslims who don't murder Americans, who live in America, who live peacefully with Christians and Jews must be going to hell for their betrayal of Mohamed's "words."

You are just another literalist who interprets according to your own religiousness and bigoted bias.

Incredible. How many times have I told you that I'm an atheist? Five? Ten? Twenty? Apparently the only voice you listen to is your own.
If after all we've been through on here, you still think I 'pray to God'...well, you're not obviously not listening to a word anyone says. No wonder your head is so full of delusions and sophistry. Keep living in your own dream world. I'm done feeding this troll.
Bye.