Under God

[FredFlash]

Quote from jem:

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions62.html

While in 1811 it seems that the New York may not have "established" Christianity as a state religion. It was considered part of the common law and the Supreme Court held is was misdemenor offense to utter blasphemy if the statement was not part of a serious religious discourse.

People v. Ruggles see the link above.

Judge Kent was a Federalist whacko who believed that Christianity was considered part of the common law of New York. However, no one else did.

The offical records of the Ruggles case do not exist. We don't even know what Mr. Ruggles first name was or which court tried the case. Some scholars suspect it may be bogus.

Kent was a New York Judge. The U. S. Supreme Court never reviewed the case.

Judge Kent's view of religious liberty was way out of line in 1811. The Madisonian view of blasphemy generally previaled in all the other states.

 

[jem]

That is kind of a interesting statement you make. In the Trinity case, the U.S Supereme court expressly mentioned chancellor kent and the holding in the case as well as a few other examples. While they were not reviewing the case on appeal they did cite it. And it is my understand that Chancellor Kent was writing on behalf of the New York Supreme Court. So it was not some wacky thing.

 

[FredFlash]

Georgia had no established religion after 1776 and the George religious test was removed before the First Amendment was even sent to the States for ratification.

How do you reconcile the abolishment of the Georgia State Religion in 1776 and the removal of the religious test in 1789 with your claim that the people of Georgia had "absolutely no problem" with civil establishments of religion?

What was the legally established religion in Pennsylvania when our system of national government was adopted?

 

[FredFlash]

Kentucky; Article II, Section 26 (1777) "No person, while he continues to exercise the functions of a clergyman, priest, or teacher of any religious persuasion, society of sect...shall be eligible to the general assembly..."

How does excluding the clegy from the Kentucky legislature show the people of Kentucky had no problem with government authority over their religion?

 

[FredFlash]

North Carolina; Article XXXII (1776) "That no person, who shall deny the being of God or the truth of the Protestant religion, or the divine authority either of the Old or New Testaments,...shall be capable of holding any office or place of trust or profit in the civil department within this State.

North Carolina had no legal establishment of religion after 1776 and its religious test, which supposedly excluded non-Protestants, was never enforced.

The religious test in the North Carolina Constitution of 1776 was not obtained from the consent of the governed. For that reason it was never enforced.

The 1776 test supposedly excluded Non-Protestants. However, Nathaniel Macon, a Deist, served in the State Senate in 1781, 1782, and 1784 and was elected in 1785 to the Continental Congress but declined to serve. He served 16 years as a Representative to the U. S. Congresses and was Speaker of the House of Representatives during the Seventh through Ninth Congresses.

In December 1815, Macon was elected U. S. Senator. He was elected President of the North Carolina Constitutional Convention of 1835 and there gave a speech declaring that if a Hindu were to come to and aspire to an office to which merit would entitle him; his religion should not be a bar.

The avowed Deist Christopher Dudley served seven times as State Senator from Onslow County. Source of Information: W. E. Dodd, "The Role of Nathaniel Macon in Southern History' American Historical Review, Vll, p. 665.
Jacob Henry, a Jew, was elected to the North Carolina House of Commons in 1808. Source of Information: Debates of North Carolina Constitutional Convention of 1835 Pages 264-305.

Thomas Burke, a Catholic, served for three years (1779-1781) as a member of the Continental Congress from North Carolina and in 1781 was elected Governor of the State. Source of Information: Debates of North Carolina Constitutional Convention of 1835 Pages 270- 271.

William Gaston was a Catholic and was elected to the State Senate in 1799 and the House of Delegates in 1808 where he was chosen to be the Speaker of the House. From 1813 till 1815 Gaston was a Representative to the U. S. Congress and in 1834 became a Justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court. On 1840 he declined an offer to be a U. S. Senator.

Infidels had been members of each branch of the General Assembly according to delegate Judge Toomer at the Convention of 1835. Source of Information: Debates of Convention of 1835, 271-272.

View Debates of Convention of 1835 at http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/connor08/connor08.html

 

[FredFlash]

Pennsylvania; Frame of Government, Section 10 (1776) "And each member [of the legislature]...shall make and subscribe the following declaration, viz.:

'I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder to the good and the punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine inspiration.'"

All of that was removed in 1790 to bring the Pennsylvania State Constitution in line with the U. S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.

 

[FredFlash]

South Carolina; Article XII (1778) "...no person shall be eligible to a seat in the said senate unless he be of the Protestant religion."

South Carolina; Article XXI (1778) "...no minister of the gospel or public preachers of any religious persuasion, while he continues in the exercise of his pastoral function, and for two years after, shall be eligible either as governor, lieutenant-governor, a member of the senate, house of representatives, or privy council in this State."

South Carolina; Article XXXVIII (1778) "That all persons and religious societies who acknowledge that there is one God, and a future state of rewards and punishments, and that God is publicly to be worshipped, shall be freely tolerated. The Christian Protestant religion shall be deemed...to be the established religion of this State."

All of that was removed in 1790 to bring the South Carolina Sate Constitution in line with the U. S. Constitution.

 

[FredFlash]

Quote from jem: If you were to review U.S. Supreme Court cases like the well known Trinity case, you will read a history in which the court reviews the all the reasons why it confirmed that the U.S. was a Christian nation.

The legal issue in "Holy Trinity" was whether the minister of the Holy Trinity church provided "services" to his congregation. The court's opinion that this is a Christian Nation was unnecessary dicta. The case says nothing whatsoever about the meaning of the Constitution and the First Amendment.

In WATSON v. JONES (1871) the Supreme Court applied James Madison's principle that religion is exempt from the cognizance of the civil government to the question of whether civil courts may take cognizance of religious questions. The court held that it could not. The source of the non-cognizance rule was "the American concept of the relationship between church and state" which was that civil governments do not determine religious issues. That is what the Separation of Church and State is all about.

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from FredFlash:

Dear ShoeshineBoy:

What was the official Christian denomination of Rhode Island in 1787?

FS

I looked it up again and only 8 out of 13 of the original states had a state religion, so I accidently exagerrated. But my point is still valid: the early Americans were not in general concerned with anything other than a "King of England" trying to establish a federal religion.

The great majority of the early colonists and leaders had no trouble with the idea of a Christian nation and it would have never even crossed their mind to think otherwise. Most of them had probably never met an atheist or a Hindu for example, so I'm not sure what your point it...

 

[FredFlash]

I looked it up again and only 8 out of 13 of the original states had a state religion

What is your source of information; and your idea of a "state religion" and what eight states had state religons at the time our system of government was established?

No state, except South Carolina, had any sort of religious doctrine or mode of worship establshed by law in 1788.

Three states (Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Hampshire) had legal establishements the people's duty to contribute to the support of protestant teachers. Howevever, "Protestant" was not defined and the courts held that religions that denied the trinity and the diety of Christ were considered Protestat.

Other states (Georgia, Maryland and North Carolina) had legal establishments of the people's duty to support religion on paper in their constitutions. However, the establishement were never put into effect.

Offical established religions, as you probably envision them, did not exist in the States after 1776.