Trump's Base and Welfare

[WeToddDid2]

Walmart wants all of the EBT money. They are experimenting with giving free rides to Walmart via Waymo self driving cars.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech...ides-walmart-its-self-driving-cars/832840002/

Waymo will give shoppers rides to Walmart with its self-driving cars

 

[userque]

That's fine, you disagree. But what is your reasoning? I mean, you started the thread. Are you not open to debate?

Of course I'm open to debate. Do you want to debate the meaning of "taxes" vs "fees"? State your claim exactly.

 

[Tsing Tao]

Of course I'm open to debate. Do you want to debate the meaning of "taxes" vs "fees"? State your claim exactly.

Sure. Taxes imply a cost exerted on either individuals or businesses via a government entity. Fees can be imposed by private institutions and businesses.

Taxes must be paid or legal claims can be brought against a business or individual. Fees may not be paid and may or may not be legally binding.

Taxes usually refer to a cost an individual or a business must pay for residency in the sovereignty where the tax is being demanded. Fees are subject to participation in a program or service (auto registration is a good example of a fee).

In this example, the Fee being imposed by the government is only mandatory if the business wishes to participate in the SNAP program. If the fee is not paid, the business cannot participate. No legal recourse is demanded and there are no penalties, civil or criminal. If the same business does not pay its sales tax, then there is a different story altogether.

Your turn. Why are fees and taxes the same here?

 

[userque]

Sure. Taxes imply a cost exerted on either individuals or businesses via a government entity. Fees can be imposed by private institutions and businesses.

Of course. But we are debating a specific fee. A fee from the Government.

Taxes must be paid or legal claims can be brought against a business or individual. Fees may not be paid and may or may not be legally binding.

All taxes don't have to be paid. Just as all fees don't have to be paid.

If you don't by gas, you don't pay a gas tax. If you have no income, you pay no income tax. If you have no vehicles, you pay no sticker fees. Etc. etc.

Taxes usually refer to a cost an individual or a business must pay for residency in the sovereignty where the tax is being demanded. Fees are subject to participation in a program or service (auto registration is a good example of a fee).

Taxes and fees relate to the residency of the sovereignty where they are demanded.
Taxes and fees are subject to participation in a program or service. We could have called it an auto registration tax or fee. A sales tax or fee. A gas tax or fee.

In this example, the Fee being imposed by the government is only mandatory if the business wishes to participate in the SNAP program. If the fee is not paid, the business cannot participate. No legal recourse is demanded and there are no penalties, civil or criminal. If the same business does not pay its sales tax, then there is a different story altogether.

Your turn. Why are fees and taxes the same here?

A business can sell cigarettes without paying the tax. A person can have income without paying taxes. A person can drive without buying a sticker. Etc. Whether it's a tax or a fee, either can be avoided unlawfully.

Welfare fraud in not new either.

Again, it's all semantics.

But an argument you could have made, and this is based upon my observations only--not the internet--is that fees tend to be flat amounts, and taxes tend to be percentages. But this is not a rule.

Finally:

 

[Tsing Tao]

Of course. But we are debating a specific fee. A fee from the Government.

Yes, a fee. Not a tax.

All taxes don't have to be paid. Just as all fees don't have to be paid.

If you don't by gas, you don't pay a gas tax. If you have no income, you pay no income tax. If you have no vehicles, you pay no sticker fees. Etc. etc.

A gas tax is an excise tax not charged to the consumer. It is passed on to the consumer. Some industries have the ability to pass on taxes in price. Thus, what you and I pay at the pump is not tax, but a fee. "An excise tax is an indirect tax charged by the government on the sale of a particular good or service." This functions like Sales Tax. If you don't sell gas, you don't need to pay this tax. If you don't sell anything you don't need to pay a sales tax on anything. The SNAP is not a tax, but a FEE imposed by the government to process their SNAP refund.

Taxes and fees relate to the residency of the sovereignty where they are demanded.
Taxes and fees are subject to participation in a program or service. We could have called it an auto registration tax or fee. A sales tax or fee. A gas tax or fee.

Sorry, you can't just say it is so. You have to prove it.

A business can sell cigarettes without paying the tax. A person can have income without paying taxes. A person can drive without buying a sticker. Etc. Whether it's a tax or a fee, either can be avoided unlawfully.

Unlawfully is the differential we're talking about here. Yes, you can do it. But you face legal penalties if you do. Failing to pay a fee doesn't result in prosecution. This is entirely my point.
Welfare fraud in not new either.

Again, it's all semantics.

But an argument you could have made, and this is based upon my observations only--not the internet--is that fees tend to be flat amounts, and taxes tend to be percentages. But this is not a rule.

That is certainly not the only distinction.

Finally:

From your source: A compulsory contribution to state revenue.

Just because there is a synonym doesn't prove your point. Tithe is a synonym, too, and no one would say the SNAP fee is a tithe.

 

[userque]

Yes, a fee. Not a tax. ...

I submit, specifically, that the government's use of "tax" vs "fee" is a discretionary one; that there are no hard and fast rules regarding which one it uses, nor when; that it uses whichever one it feels sounds better at the time the wording is crafted, even if its choice is deceptive.

I stand on what I've already submitted as evidence, and on common sense, however strong either turns out to be in the mind of the reader. I'm OK with whatever leaning a reader takes.

If I had nothing better to do, I'd probably rebut your last post, and write a bunch more stuff about this topic.

That's not true. I can only devote so much time to such a topic.

 

[Tsing Tao]

I submit, specifically, that the government's use of "tax" vs "fee" is a discretionary one; that there are no hard and fast rules regarding which one it uses, nor when; that it uses whichever one it feels sounds better at the time the wording is crafted, even if its choice is deceptive.

I stand on what I've already submitted as evidence, and on common sense, however strong either turns out to be in the mind of the reader. I'm OK with whatever leaning a reader takes.

If I had nothing better to do, I'd probably rebut your last post, and write a bunch more stuff about this topic.

That's not true. I can only devote so much time to such a topic.

Ah, a passive aggressive withdrawal. Ok, I can acknowledge your tactical retreat. For future reference, if you're going to start a thread asking for people's opinions and debate, but then bristle when given information you don't agree with, the better tactic is just to say "thanks!" This is just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary.

 

[userque]

Ah, a passive aggressive withdrawal. Ok, I can acknowledge your tactical retreat. For future reference, if you're going to start a thread asking for people's opinions and debate, but then bristle when given information you don't agree with, the better tactic is just to say "thanks!" This is just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary.

You do realize that everyone can read the topic of this thread, right?

You do realize that the topic of this thread has nothing at all to do with what you want to passionately debate ... the meaning of taxes vs fees ... right?

 

[Tsing Tao]

You do realize that everyone can read the topic of this thread, right?

You do realize that the topic of this thread has nothing at all to do with what you want to passionately debate ... the meaning of taxes vs fees ... right?

Hey man, your opening post was about the fee the Trump administration wants to impose on retailers for management of the SNAP program. You wanted this to come across as Trump's war on the poor, which it is absolutely not.

This led to you claiming it was a tax on all of us, which it is not. We (you and I) then got into a conversation on tax vs. fee, that you provided a less-than-stellar argument for and now you're upset that we are supposedly off topic.

They are called "Discussion Threads" for a reason. Discussion ensues. Its not like I'm trying to get you to talk about American Idol or something. We're on topic, you just don't like the responses you're getting.

I note that you are not a regular visitor down here in the Politics forum. I respect that - its actually a plus for you. But it gets rough down here sometimes. Not everything will go your way.

 

[userque]

Hey man, your opening post was about the fee the Trump administration wants to impose on retailers for management of the SNAP program. You wanted this to come across as Trump's war on the poor, which it is absolutely not.

Quote my exact wording that causes you to believe that I wanted this to come across as Trump's war on the poor.

This led to you claiming it was a tax on all of us, which it is not.

Quote my exact wording that causes you to believe that I claimed it was a tax on all of us.

We (you and I) then got into a conversation on tax vs. fee, that you provided a less-than-stellar argument for and now you're upset that we are supposedly off topic.

They are called "Discussion Threads" for a reason. Discussion ensues. Its not like I'm trying to get you to talk about American Idol or something. We're on topic, you just don't like the responses you're getting.

I note that you are not a regular visitor down here in the Politics forum. I respect that - its actually a plus for you. But it gets rough down here sometimes. Not everything will go your way.

LOL ... you seem to be the one that's upset! Upset that I won't entertain further your belief about the usage of the words tax vs fee.