Not to split hairs, but didn't the House version eliminate the deduction for student loan interest and the Senate version made tuition waivers taxable? I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with both in the final version!
Trump Tax Reform - a total squeeze on middle class W2 workers
- Thread starter RedDuke
- Start date
From what I've read, it seems that the House version would eliminate both, while the Senate one would preserve both.
This is from the (fake) WaPo:
"The House bill would repeal the tax deduction for student loan interest, which allows people repaying student loans to cut their tax burden by as much as $2,500 annually. The House version also taxes tuition waivers — which allow many graduate students to attend school tuition-free — as income, raising the ire of students who said such a levy would make their education unaffordable.
But the Senate leaves those provisions intact. The Senate plan also excludes a House proposal to roll three higher-education tax credits into one benefit."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-bill-means-for-schools-parents-and-students/
yes
one definitely can criticize opinion but not switching from criticizing the opinion to criticizing the person himself who express the opinion
we are here not discuss each other, just opinions
if those obscenities would be address to my opinions i have no problem with that, just do not direct them at me
because first thing any authoritarian regime does is shut opinions on the basis that they have no values, and switching criticism from the opinion itself to the person who expressed them
baloney as explained above
Guys, this is exactly what happens in our gov't. You start going off topic and debating about trivial issues while ignoring the real meat of the problem. As I said before, there seems to be a few core complaints I keep hearing over and over. One, the middle class are getting shafted. Two, this is a tax cut for the rich.
Let's start with one. The middle class in this country pay almost no taxes! You can't cut what they don't pay. The math just doesn't work. We can start a dialogue if you want about whether we should just hand out money on street corners but outside of that, we can't give you back what you don't pay in. So when you hear these stories about some hypothetical person making 50k a year who is only going to see a $1200 tax cut. What they are leaving out is that person only pays about 2k total in taxes! They are actually getting a 60% reduction. Yes, it's true in dollars it doesn't seem like much but that's only because they are not paying much to begin with. Meaning the guy who is making 10 million is going to save let's say 500k in taxes. Tax cut for the rich! Well he is also paying probably 4 million in taxes! The top 5% of taxpayers pay most of the federal income taxes in this country. So by definition any cut in the marginal rates HAS to benefit them. There is no other way to square that circle.
Here is where we are and how we got here. As I said, our taxes are really too low. And because of this democrats are in a terrible bind. They will have to run on raising taxes not by a little, but a lot. The problem is they don't want to do this. Republicans have gotten effective rates so low that the country is at a stalemate. This is not good. If we were all paying a more reasonable rate somewhere in the middle, then we could have a real debate in this country. Republicans could make the argument for lowering rates and democrats could make the argument for government programs. Because that can't happen now, we have this divisive war that basically is over divisive issues (immigration, the wall, terrorism, etc).
There is nothing wrong with this tax reform package. But there is nothing good about it either. Remember, the purpose of this tax reform was not to cut individual rates, it was to cut corporate rates and "simplify" taxes for individuals. The lobbyists refused to let this happen so now the tax reform has actually added complexity. This is not a tax cut for the rich, nor is it terrible beneficial to the middle class. Again, unless you want to give money to the middle class, there is no way to effectively lower their rates.
I have long supported the idea of doing away with individual income taxes and moved to a national sales tax. You can tax corporations, capital gains, and individuals through a sales tax. This is the only real way to effectively get money from the rich. Wealthy people don't have wages, they have assets. And most of them have firms that manage and optimize those assets so they pay the least amount in taxes. Because they rarely draw income from these assets, raising the top rates is not effective. You could raise the top rate to 90% and you won't collect another dime.
But what is happening now is exactly what I was afraid would happen. Instead of the "we're going to end all deductions" and simplify taxes, everyone came out of the woodwork and started crying to keep their deductions and now congress has to pick and choose which ones to keep and it's making this a mess. We're the only country in this world that has this deduction crap. Nobody should get deductions.
And no, a national sales tax would NOT destroy our economy. Almost every civilized nation on earth has one and their economies are doing as well if not better then ours.
Let's start with one. The middle class in this country pay almost no taxes! You can't cut what they don't pay. The math just doesn't work. We can start a dialogue if you want about whether we should just hand out money on street corners but outside of that, we can't give you back what you don't pay in. So when you hear these stories about some hypothetical person making 50k a year who is only going to see a $1200 tax cut. What they are leaving out is that person only pays about 2k total in taxes! They are actually getting a 60% reduction. Yes, it's true in dollars it doesn't seem like much but that's only because they are not paying much to begin with. Meaning the guy who is making 10 million is going to save let's say 500k in taxes. Tax cut for the rich! Well he is also paying probably 4 million in taxes! The top 5% of taxpayers pay most of the federal income taxes in this country. So by definition any cut in the marginal rates HAS to benefit them. There is no other way to square that circle.
Here is where we are and how we got here. As I said, our taxes are really too low. And because of this democrats are in a terrible bind. They will have to run on raising taxes not by a little, but a lot. The problem is they don't want to do this. Republicans have gotten effective rates so low that the country is at a stalemate. This is not good. If we were all paying a more reasonable rate somewhere in the middle, then we could have a real debate in this country. Republicans could make the argument for lowering rates and democrats could make the argument for government programs. Because that can't happen now, we have this divisive war that basically is over divisive issues (immigration, the wall, terrorism, etc).
There is nothing wrong with this tax reform package. But there is nothing good about it either. Remember, the purpose of this tax reform was not to cut individual rates, it was to cut corporate rates and "simplify" taxes for individuals. The lobbyists refused to let this happen so now the tax reform has actually added complexity. This is not a tax cut for the rich, nor is it terrible beneficial to the middle class. Again, unless you want to give money to the middle class, there is no way to effectively lower their rates.
I have long supported the idea of doing away with individual income taxes and moved to a national sales tax. You can tax corporations, capital gains, and individuals through a sales tax. This is the only real way to effectively get money from the rich. Wealthy people don't have wages, they have assets. And most of them have firms that manage and optimize those assets so they pay the least amount in taxes. Because they rarely draw income from these assets, raising the top rates is not effective. You could raise the top rate to 90% and you won't collect another dime.
But what is happening now is exactly what I was afraid would happen. Instead of the "we're going to end all deductions" and simplify taxes, everyone came out of the woodwork and started crying to keep their deductions and now congress has to pick and choose which ones to keep and it's making this a mess. We're the only country in this world that has this deduction crap. Nobody should get deductions.
And no, a national sales tax would NOT destroy our economy. Almost every civilized nation on earth has one and their economies are doing as well if not better then ours.
Are you serious? 39% is the max out for ordinary income.... Before deductions! Middle income people can't write off nearly as much as the other half and that is why people like mitt Romney, John McCain and Obama pay <15% effective tax rates. For anyone else over the poverty level, after standard deductions they pay more. Most rich people make their money through carried interest, stock options, capital gains and other means that are taxed at a rate far less than ordinary income, plus they have more deductions available which make their rate much lower.
You are still not getting it. Most rich people don't have income. Why is this so hard for you to understand? As you pointed out correctly, they have assets, trusts, etc but they report very little income. Not because they are evil, but because it's not even them doing it, it's their private wealth manager at Goldman whose fiduciary responsibility is to maximize their wealth.
Who cares about all participants? Let them worry about themselves and select what they want to read/consider or not...
You (as everybody else) are here because of YOU... You expect to get something for yourself(fun, kill time, information... whatever)... Who are you or anybody else(including me) to judge what is useful or not for anyone? As I said, each one has to decide what is useful or not for oneself, individually... And if anyone has the power to judge what is useful or not to others, then we are indeed in a communist(or fascist, it´s essentialy the same thing) state.
But not nearly as big a difference as running any company and running a government entity of any kind!