Trend riding

I really have no opinion on the plumbers of Billings Montana. But if somebody is going to try to throw them in jail for no just cause, then I will stand up and defend the plumbers. Not because I like the plumbers, just because I don't want to live in a country of people who mindlessly accuse anything they don't understand.

If you can clean out a drain with a bottle of drano, that's fine, I'm happy for you. But how is eliminating plumbers going to help keep your drain clean?

Maybe some people lost money using moving averages. If so, we now know there are at least 2 possibilites. There is something wrong with moving averages, or there is something wrong with some people.

If we could find a right moving average, we could compare it to other moving averages to see if they are wrong. Or we could just take everybody who has ever lost money using them and declare them wrong and throw them in jail. It wouldn't solve the moving average problem, but it would get rid of the wrong people.
 
But getting back to the topic of trends, DG's information is really quite profound. I for one have often stated (now apparently falsely) that over time any ma crossover would make you money, but the annual profit may not even beat a t bill if you don't run out of money first. But now, if this information is correct, it puts into jepardy

1. any trend following system (no great loss)

2. any trend (big problem)

If you think ma has gotten a bad rap, it has lived on easy street compared to the over bought over sold crowd. Maybe their day is coming. Maybe all trends are coming to an end.

Very interesting contribution DG. Very thought provoking indeed. If you take away trends, you have taken away the way I pay my bills. Oh, I can hardly wait for the emotional defending and accusations that are gonna fly around on this debate!

And the same guys who are making money on trends will be making money on chop, and the same people who are arguing will still be arguing.

I love life, it is the most entertaining pastime I have ever discovered. It's sort of like macd. I don't understand it, but I use it when I don't have anything better to do, and so far it has been profitable.
 
This could explain why just a short while ago I was using 2 pt stops looking for 6 handles. Now I am using 2 tick stops and over joyed at 1.75.

If the trend continues, I will be using no stops looking for 1 tick.
 
Actually, I should clarify my previous statement a bit...

For single and double moving average trading systems in 'mature markets', they were found to be unprofitable at all MA lengths.

That's why the triple MA was developed.

Of course, by creating an adaptive MA, I think using MA's in a trend following system will still be viable. Myself, I designed an adaptive triple MA, just to be sure I kept two steps ahead.

As the markets become more noisy, more sophisticated methods will be required to beat them.

DGBrothers
 
Actually, ProfitSeer, I am trying to figure out how you guys are trading profitably in such small ranges?

I'd love to be able to pick up those two point moves, as well as the larger trends.

How do I do it?

Are you guys floor traders, or you have extremely low commission costs?

How do you determine if a small move is going to be large enough to pull a profit out?

Do you use stops at all, and if so, where do you set them for only a 2 point move or so?

What type of methodology do you use?

Do you look for specific patterns, or use volume/open interest, or something else I don't know about?

What type of trading platform do you use?

What is the average time to get filled on your orders?

What type of return is average for 'trading the chop'?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me,
DGBrothers
 
Originally posted by cpo
Which would be the most sound way to optimize a moving average to a single market and time frame? Is there a way to or are we dealing just with cognitive illusions?

Perhaps the only determinant factor would the moving average time lag in comparison with the price action. Then we adjust the periods according to our preferences.

And what about simple vs. weighted vs. exponential moving averages? Would the choices be subjective too?

I think you fellows gave me the answer I needed. It seems to be all about subjective choices. :)

In other words, MA's are useful as long as you use your judgement to complement the "system".

"Methods, as they relate to trading, are nothing more than a process of discovery. The trader discovers, methodizes, applies and repeats the process. It is only upon the traders application of these methods that they become significant. If a trader were to trade a method as simple as 'Buy Low Sell High', success or failure would not be a result of the method, but rather the traders application of the method." Rogue Trader

cpo
 
Originally posted by DGBrothers
As for optimizing a moving average (MA), what you want to do is to determine the dominant cycle length of the market, then set the MA length (in code, of course, since the dominant cycle length is constantly changing) to exactly half of the dominant cycle length.

Why 1/2? Well, look at the market as a continuously varying sine wave, then imagine if the sine wave was stuck at a length of exactly 14 days. That means that over 14 days, the sine wave travels from the bottom of one wave to its apex, and back to the bottom. With a MA set at, say, 14 days, you'd be measuring both the part of the sine wave that is going up (before it reaches its apex), as well as the part that is going back down. This makes the MA inefficient. But, if you set your MA length to 7 (in this case only...it'll constantly change as the market dominant cycle length changes), then you'll have a perfect MA that is showing only the increasing part of the sine wave as it's increasing, and only the decreasing part as it's decreasing. Perfect efficiency.

How do you calculate the dominant market cycle length? You use a Hilbert transform (check out John Ehler's book, "Rocket Science For Traders" for a description) equation.

If you want to get really fancy, (and can do some complicated coding), you can then take a MA of the first MA, figure out the lag between the two MA's, and add the length of the lag to the first MA. Viola! A perfectly synchronized MA with no lag!

Again, check out the above mentioned book to figure out how to do this.

Another trick you might want to try is to use a triple MA (three lines), each with a different length. The first would be the length of the dominant market cycle length, the second would be exactly 1/2 the length of the dominant market cycle, and the third would be 1/4 the dominant market cycle length. When the shorter MA crosses over one other MA, you're alerted to a possible trend, when it crosses over both of the other MA's, and the middle MA crosses over the longer MA (so you've got the longer MA on top, the middle length one in the middle, and the shorter one beneath), you've got a definite trend down. Vice versa for an uptrend.

Of course, if your using a Weighted MA (WMA), then your length would be approximately 1/3 the dominant market cycle length. I wouldn't use an Exponential MA (EMA), simply because it's less responsive than a WMA, and tends to filter out too much of the trend you're trying to identify.

That all being said, I must tell you that significant studies have been done that show that for larger markets (those with high volume), MA trend analysis is UNPROFITABLE for all MA lengths. The reason for this is that with a higher volume (more traders), there is more noise. In other words, traders are pulling their money out and putting their money into the markets for reasons other than the dominant trend. For instance, as more and more people began trading the DOW, you had people putting money in simply because they'd gotten a large inheritance, and wanted to do something with it. Or people who pulled their money out simply because they wanted to buy a car, boat, what-have-you.
This introduces a large amount of noise into the market that overwhelms simple MA trading systems.

Sometimes, having neophyte investors in the arena with you doesn't seem like such a great idea...notwithstanding the liquidity (i.e.: profits) they provide.

Then, you also have to take into consideration those markets that are, for all intents and purposes, manipulated. Crude oil would be a perfect example...the price is not set by supply and demand, as most people would like to believe. OPEC, a cartel of oil exporting nations, gets together to decide the price (i.e.: price fixing on an international scale). Thus, trends are harder to pick up in markets like these, notwithholding the seasonal variations in price (which can easily be overridded by government action (dipping into stores to prevent untoward price increases), or by OPEC action (increasing or decreasing output to get the price they want), or even by non-OPEC nations (jacking up their output to take advantage of short-term price increases, which kills the trend).

DGBrothers:

I appreciate your input and effort. Keep up your good work.

PEACE and good trading,

cpo
 
Originally posted by profitseer
And so cpo, there is the answer to your question. If you want to optimize a moving average, you must first realize that you don't need a moving average, and if you had one, there wouldn't be anything you could do with it anyway, and so the optimal setting would be zero.

:D :D :D

profitseer:

Actually I brought the questions because I myself never use them for trade signals. Instead they help me to assess the market flow.

Nevertheless, as everybody in this business seems to have those fancy lines on their charts, I would like to know which averages would better represent the major, intermediate and minor trends, respectively. And it would appear that the choice is subjective and dependent on the market and time frame under focus. I mean, there seems to be no consensus about it.

cpo
 
Thanks, ProfitSeer.

I'm definitely trader type #2. I prefer to sit quietly on the sidelines until I see the right setup.

Then, my ears perk up, I lean forward in my chair, and I say to myself, "Ooh, here we go!", and proceed to pull money out. The only thing I don't like about it is looking at all the small moves and seeing the amount of money I left on the table.

Fortunately, with my proprietary indicators based upon signal analysis, I should be over 50% (the system isn't ready for prime-time yet, I'm designing it for our brokerage, so I'm being extra careful to account for every contingency like report days, stale trades, options exiration days, etc.)

I think trading in the chop would be an exercise in frustration for me.

I'd still like to take a crack at trying the EasyLanguage coding for trading in the chop, though. Might be that I could figure it out and really come up with a kick-butt trading system for all types of markets.

Thanks,
DGBrothers
 
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