If spoofing is illegal, then why do you type legal spoofing?
The fack is wrong with you?
I think I am done with this thread of self-indulgence you have created for yourself. Show real account statements, RED, or it did not happen.
End of line.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Trading without LIMIT orders and randomizing the book
- Thread starter REDP1800
- Start date
If spoofing is illegal, then why do you type legal spoofing?
The fack is wrong with you?
I think I am done with this thread of self-indulgence you have created for yourself. Show real account statements, RED, or it did not happen.
End of line.
No .. the cme told me ther have been an unusual high number of cancels this evening because the cancel ratio was lited tonight strictly because teh mkt is closed tomorrow. I saee there was a lot of unusual activity this evening so I looked into it. I have only cancelled maybe 10 orders.. it is dangerous to trade when they cancel and move cancel and move. you understand right.. they build a wall with limit orders.. take all teh bricks out except 1. you get filled and the limit order book ticks down against you ..that is how it works all day long. that is why I advocate mkt orders because you are the downtick when you limit.. you limit your profit and the mkt from moving higher.You're a legend in your own hand. 28,000 cancels in an hour. So you intended to trade those 28,000 orders, but decided during the hour that "Nahhh, I suddenly don't want those orders to execute. I intended to trade them, but something has come over me...I hear a trading spirit voice in my head that said, NO, do not trade those entries! Cancel them all now!"
In my eyes, your credibility here has dropped to negative zero, the construct of which is actually impossible in this physical universe we live in. So you are special! That is for sure!
i gotta laugh at the people on this site.. show my account statements.. lol. it isn't spoofing unless you are taking the other side of the trade?????? duh.. and yes.. legal spoofing is what the members are doing who are also HFT.. are you really that dumb to think that it is fair for us? lmao. wow. and to send me that video.. oh golly that really hurts. I love all music so thanks.If spoofing is illegal, then why do you type legal spoofing?
The fack is wrong with you?
I think I am done with this thread of self-indulgence you have created for yourself. Show real account statements, RED, or it did not happen.
End of line.
legal spoofing is illegal spoofing that is allowed to pay a 1000 fine per day which is 1 tick on an 80 lot.. so we aren't talking much money here people. Statements.. lol..i gotta laugh at the people on this site.. show my account statements.. lol. it isn't spoofing unless you are taking the other side of the trade?????? duh.. and yes.. legal spoofing is what the members are doing who are also HFT.. are you really that dumb to think that it is fair for us? lmao. wow. and to send me that video.. oh golly that really hurts. I love all music so thanks.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...high-frequency-traders-cancel-so-many-orders-
this articel explains in laymans terms for the average public who doesn't trade. but the best part is that at the CME there are NO MARKET MAKERS in the EMINI futures.period. so when citadel and virt do this and the dbags (deutche bank) the are actually LEGALLY illegally spoofing!! ther are Market makers in teh cme electronic options.. but there are no designated market makeers in mini equity futures.. so yes.. they are cancelling 50 % of their orders that they have no intention of filling... you get it now?
this articel explains in laymans terms for the average public who doesn't trade. but the best part is that at the CME there are NO MARKET MAKERS in the EMINI futures.period. so when citadel and virt do this and the dbags (deutche bank) the are actually LEGALLY illegally spoofing!! ther are Market makers in teh cme electronic options.. but there are no designated market makeers in mini equity futures.. so yes.. they are cancelling 50 % of their orders that they have no intention of filling... you get it now?
and to make things even mor ILLEGAL the do fill orders on the opposite side of the cancel! had sareo been smart enough to become a member and not hired an idiot to make a computer program (algo) that he let the cme and cftc look at or talk about it then he would have had a slap on the wrist. HFT algo's are very simple cancel machines and they WILL NOT shaare teh code because it is illegal. but the cme like the volumes and the cftc is underfunded.. I dont hate hft but I don't like it either. HFT is the main reason hedge funds are getting smaller. the ALPHA id being gobbled up risk free and we are talking billions of profits from all over the WORLD. It could be used as financial warefare. at the push of a button a countries stock marekt and all the retirement money and bond market could go down to almost nothing in 20 minutes. it will happen here too one day .. cancels without a cost should be removed from the clob. if you cancel you pay.. that way the book is full of REAL ORDERS and REAL LIQUIDITY. 90 % of the orders on the book are cancelled but with retail .. we never cancel. Like a deer in the headlights screaming.. take my moneyhttps://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...high-frequency-traders-cancel-so-many-orders-
this articel explains in laymans terms for the average public who doesn't trade. but the best part is that at the CME there are NO MARKET MAKERS in the EMINI futures.period. so when citadel and virt do this and the dbags (deutche bank) the are actually LEGALLY illegally spoofing!! ther are Market makers in teh cme electronic options.. but there are no designated market makeers in mini equity futures.. so yes.. they are cancelling 50 % of their orders that they have no intention of filling... you get it now?
This actually could be valid discussion because millions of traders adjust their orders every day, either chasing after price moving away from them, or trying to change their limit to get better price, or simply trying to get filled between bid & ask. While often I also have to fight for getting closer to the mid price. I think that a few months ago I saw someone here saying that Interactive Brokers agent helps them fill some orders when they want to get out at a decent price on a larger options qty, implying that someone (or some IB bot) will walk the price back and forth to get closer to the mid.
While Charles Schwab offers proprietary WALK LIMIT order type (acquired from OptionsXpress), which does pretty much what REDP1800 described here.
http://www.optiontradingpedia.com/options_walk_limit_order.htm
We as traders should be fighting for ourselves and discussing ways to deal with HFT and other bots, and collaborate on ways to simply get fair fills. We need to point out their dirty tricks and ways to get orders filled rather than fall prey to their spoofing. They’re the ones who don’t want to buy or sell anything, but trick honest traders to trade at unfair prices. This is what also needs to be explained to courts. Judges are humans who’d understand our problem if explained properly. And couple rulings supporting regular traders may even put an end to big money suing anyone who simply outsmarts them. We need to turn the tables and find legal ways to do so, or force changes to the laws, and expose true manipulators. Otherwise we’re sitting ducks without brains.
Even when sued, ask SEC to explain to judges the ways that we should trade to avoid dirty HFT tricks and get fair prices without being tricked and forced to adjust your price! It’s also easy to demonstrate how prices suddenly change and move away from you when trying to buy or sell stuff.
Let SEC sweat it out and explain how we should be avoiding manipulators. Does SEC actually have answers and solutions to what’s going on? Put them on the f..ing spot sissies. Their job is to protect us from scum, not collaborate with manipulators. In some cases it may be easier to prove that SEC is colluding with market manipulators than protecting us.
I’m not advocating price manipulation, while it should be our right to simply trying to get fair price when actually buying and selling stuff. And I’m not sure if REDP1800 is saying anything else.
If anyone has solutions to dealing with HFT bots then it would be great to hear about or discuss them. Or let’s ask SEC, maybe in court if you’re doing everything right but get sued. Why are people even afraid to adjust their own f...ing orders? You’re adjusting them to deal with market manipulation, not to cause it (unless you’re trying to be another HFT).
Though sure, I also can barely understand REDP1800‘s rants, so this topic could be structured and spelled better.
While Charles Schwab offers proprietary WALK LIMIT order type (acquired from OptionsXpress), which does pretty much what REDP1800 described here.
http://www.optiontradingpedia.com/options_walk_limit_order.htm
We as traders should be fighting for ourselves and discussing ways to deal with HFT and other bots, and collaborate on ways to simply get fair fills. We need to point out their dirty tricks and ways to get orders filled rather than fall prey to their spoofing. They’re the ones who don’t want to buy or sell anything, but trick honest traders to trade at unfair prices. This is what also needs to be explained to courts. Judges are humans who’d understand our problem if explained properly. And couple rulings supporting regular traders may even put an end to big money suing anyone who simply outsmarts them. We need to turn the tables and find legal ways to do so, or force changes to the laws, and expose true manipulators. Otherwise we’re sitting ducks without brains.
Even when sued, ask SEC to explain to judges the ways that we should trade to avoid dirty HFT tricks and get fair prices without being tricked and forced to adjust your price! It’s also easy to demonstrate how prices suddenly change and move away from you when trying to buy or sell stuff.
Let SEC sweat it out and explain how we should be avoiding manipulators. Does SEC actually have answers and solutions to what’s going on? Put them on the f..ing spot sissies. Their job is to protect us from scum, not collaborate with manipulators. In some cases it may be easier to prove that SEC is colluding with market manipulators than protecting us.
I’m not advocating price manipulation, while it should be our right to simply trying to get fair price when actually buying and selling stuff. And I’m not sure if REDP1800 is saying anything else.
If anyone has solutions to dealing with HFT bots then it would be great to hear about or discuss them. Or let’s ask SEC, maybe in court if you’re doing everything right but get sued. Why are people even afraid to adjust their own f...ing orders? You’re adjusting them to deal with market manipulation, not to cause it (unless you’re trying to be another HFT).
Though sure, I also can barely understand REDP1800‘s rants, so this topic could be structured and spelled better.
Last edited:
Fair to whom? Nothing is black and white. There are basically two types - liquidity takers and liquidity providers. Let's say you want to protect providers. So when you send the order to take liquidity, the liquidity providers will be given a chance to re-price/pull their quotes. Is that fair?We as traders should be fighting for ourselves and discussing ways to deal with HFT and other bots, and collaborate on ways to simply get fair fills.
Ok, so let's protect the liquidity takers. If you have limit orders, let's make you not able to cancel them even if conditions change. Is that fair?
Once upon a time there were pits. In the pits lived creatures called the Locals. The Locals were the only ones allowed in the pits(Colo). The Locals had the cheapest rates, the fastest(latency) access to information, and most importantly they knew who is dumb and who is smart(pfof). They printed money. But eventually they got replaced by automated versions of themselves (hft). Except hfts don't know for sure ... It's a more leveled playing field.
Who is harmed by spoofing? So let's say someone has a big order to execute. They bid at some price below best bid. The price never gets there and he cancells. Did he really want to get filled or was he spoofing? Let's say he was spoofing, who did he hurt by doing this? Well he probably pushed the price up. How? Well someone/something noticed the big order and started front running it. But the spoofer "fooled" them and sold into that pop. So did he just wacked front running algos? One parasite against another parasite.We need to point out their dirty tricks and ways to get orders filled rather than fall prey to their spoofing.
All regulations favor someone at the experience of someone else. People only complain to get an advantage, not to make things fair.
wow! you hit the NAIL DIRECTLY onthe head. I am not an advocate of breaking any rules. period and what I say to do has nothing to do with breaking rules at the exchange or laws. There has never been a time in history when "retail" has fast access to nes, teh markets, and an understanding of how they work and that is what is starting to worry the professonal community in trading and investing. ONce we get our decent algo's and our programming then they will be worried. but acting as if everything is on the LEVEL and not investigating more doesn't expand any type of edge. Talking about our losses and wins is exacatly what we should be doing. for instance.. if trading stocks. buy 50 shares and set a stop loss. if teh mkt runs down to your stop.. right at the pointof your fill.. move your stop a little lower.. so you do not get filled. if the mkt comes down a little more then buy you 200 or 300 share position or what evere your normal size is so you actually got a better price. My worst attribute in trading and it is with most is allowing a winner to run. Yeah it feels bad not buying bitcoin and runnig to 20K but it feels worse to buy bit coin at 3 cents and get out at a dollar just to see it g to 20K. appreciated your inputThis actually could be valid discussion because millions of traders adjust their orders every day, either chasing after price moving away from them, or trying to change their limit to get better price, or simply trying to get filled between bid & ask. While often I also have to fight for getting closer to the mid price. I think that a few months ago I saw someone here saying that Interactive Brokers agent helps them fill some orders when they want to get out at a decent price on a larger options qty, implying that someone (or some IB bot) will walk the price back and forth to get closer to the mid.
While Charles Schwab offers proprietary WALK LIMIT order type (acquired from OptionsXpress), which does pretty much what REDP1800 described here.
http://www.optiontradingpedia.com/options_walk_limit_order.htm
We as traders should be fighting for ourselves and discussing ways to deal with HFT and other bots, and collaborate on ways to simply get fair fills. We need to point out their dirty tricks and ways to get orders filled rather than fall prey to their spoofing. They’re the ones who don’t want to buy or sell anything, but trick honest traders to trade at unfair prices. This is what also needs to be explained to courts. Judges are humans who’d understand our problem if explained properly. And couple rulings supporting regular traders may even put an end to big money suing anyone who simply outsmarts them. We need to turn the tables and find legal ways to do so, or force changes to the laws, and expose true manipulators. Otherwise we’re sitting ducks without brains.
Even when sued, ask SEC to explain to judges the ways that we should trade to avoid dirty HFT tricks and get fair prices without being tricked and forced to adjust your price! It’s also easy to demonstrate how prices suddenly change and move away from you when trying to buy or sell stuff.
Let SEC sweat it out and explain how we should be avoiding manipulators. Does SEC actually have answers and solutions to what’s going on? Put them on the f..ing spot sissies. Their job is to protect us from scum, not collaborate with manipulators. In some cases it may be easier to prove that SEC is colluding with market manipulators than protecting us.
I’m not advocating price manipulation, while it should be our right to simply trying to get fair price when actually buying and selling stuff. And I’m not sure if REDP1800 is saying anything else.
If anyone has solutions to dealing with HFT bots then it would be great to hear about or discuss them. Or let’s ask SEC, maybe in court if you’re doing everything right but get sued. Why are people even afraid to adjust their own f...ing orders? You’re adjusting them to deal with market manipulation, not to cause it (unless you’re trying to be another HFT).
Though sure, I also can barely understand REDP1800‘s rants, so this topic could be structured and spelled better.
locals actually had a lot of days that they went home empty handed and with massive losses. The hft has an enormous advantge over locals because you said it yourself.. colocated.. well everyone in the pit was COLOCATED including my floor broker who could "watch or see" what locals were actually doing. who was buying and what qty. and the timeing was all level. Now you have no idea what the colocated servers aere doing and baased on a granularity of microseconds.. the hft has already filled and cancelled orders to move the BA spread in its favor before you even get your fill.. it seriously i slike making a trade over the phone and waiting to get your fill in the MAIL. microseconds and even nano seconds vesus 500 to 600 milliseconds for retail from home if lucky is an eternity so for you to think it is fairer than ever.. you are mistaken. even big banks cannot beat them.. when you start trading repetitively then the spread is a huge cost of doing business and it isn't just oh status quo it should be fixed and it will be with regualtion very soon.Fair to whom? Nothing is black and white. There are basically two types - liquidity takers and liquidity providers. Let's say you want to protect providers. So when you send the order to take liquidity, the liquidity providers will be given a chance to re-price/pull their quotes. Is that fair?
Ok, so let's protect the liquidity takers. If you have limit orders, let's make you not able to cancel them even if conditions change. Is that fair?
Once upon a time there were pits. In the pits lived creatures called the Locals. The Locals were the only ones allowed in the pits(Colo). The Locals had the cheapest rates, the fastest(latency) access to information, and most importantly they knew who is dumb and who is smart(pfof). They printed money. But eventually they got replaced by automated versions of themselves (hft). Except hfts don't know for sure ... It's a more leveled playing field.
Who is harmed by spoofing? So let's say someone has a big order to execute. They bid at some price below best bid. The price never gets there and he cancells. Did he really want to get filled or was he spoofing? Let's say he was spoofing, who did he hurt by doing this? Well he probably pushed the price up. How? Well someone/something noticed the big order and started front running it. But the spoofer "fooled" them and sold into that pop. So did he just wacked front running algos? One parasite against another parasite.
All regulations favor someone at the experience of someone else. People only complain to get an advantage, not to make things fair.