Trading WITH versus WITHOUT a system

Quote from bwolinsky:

I'm pretty sure you've caught that I'm someone that knows what he's talking about without being questioned about my background or credentials. At this point, only the most uninformed or simply arrogant traders would question my comments on this subject. You'll find that the single greatest breakthrough in modern finance and in my own personal trading endeavors was learning about how to exploit volatility. Adding standard deviations to indicators and formulating a theory on how to use them was one of the keys to my success. CAPM, APT, these are all variations on volatility and how to use them. Just look at how SuperBands with Linear Regression Analysis turned out more than 3 years after releasing it at http://wl4.wealth-lab.com/cgi-bin/WealthLab.DLL/getpage?page=Top25APR.htm \. I did a whole lecture to the Kentucky Math Association on this strategy, and while it wasn't anyones bag but my own, it was instrumental I think in taking me forward in my development.
I had a look at the breakthrough system of yours, the "SuperBands with linear regresion analysis" and it has shocking -49.38% maximum drawdown !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

I wouldn't trade such system even with "your money". Oh my God, your system will take your equity down to a half, and you're claiming to be someone that knows what he's talking about. I guess if I'd question your comments then it would make me "the most uninformed or simply arrogant trader" as you have pointed out, so I'll rather keep my comments to myself. :)
 
Hello to all, and thank you very much for all your advice!

Mr. Consistent suggested that I start a blog where I can start talking about my newbie process. I've already written two articles describing how I got started here:

http://startuptrader.wordpress.com

I am inviting all experienced, profitable traders to jump in and offer your advice, as you have time, and all beginners like myself to read and ask questions.

Hopefully this blog will help the newbies of trading go from booksmart to demosmart!
 
Quote from Georgii:


I am inviting all experienced, profitable traders to jump in and offer your advice, as you have time, and all beginners like myself to read and ask questions.

Hopefully this blog will help the newbies of trading go from booksmart to demosmart!
I've sent you a PM, we first need to discuss some parameters, because I decided to stay away from a situation where everyone will jump in and ask questions. I'm not at the spiritual level of people like Mother Teresa who would help every Dick, Tom and Harry. :)

I came to the conclusion that private blog should be the way to go, let's leave others here on Elite trader forum, here they can amuse themselves, no need to invite anyone :)
 
Quote from lindq:

LOL. I haven't been there in a long, long time, but interesting to see my name on some of the top 25 systems.

Those were also extremely simple systems created years ago. Nobody would have gotten rich, but they beat the hell out of the S&P.

Yeah, they did beat the S&P by several hundred thousand basis points now. None of them may be the holy grail, but they are as close to it as you can get without making your own system. I haven't seen you on there in awhile. I guess you moved on.
 
Quote from Mike Morrison:

Was this the system you used to generate those -30% returns last year or this the new and improved version??

No answer is required for your stupidity. They're two different systems dumbass.
 
Quote from lindq:

You need to understand a couple things, because you are way off base on your assumptions.

First, discretionary trading is something that you may elect to do ONLY after years in the saddle. You can't beat the market unless you know it better than your competition. Five years from now you can - possibly - think about trading with some personal discretion. Even then I would advise against it unless you are very, very good.

Second, successful system trading is about statistical probabilities. It has nothing to do with a single trade, or a single day. It has everything to do with many trades, over many days, weeks and months. That's the value of backtesting. You need to put the statistical odds in your favor in order to beat the house. Otherwise you simply won't do it over time.

Third, you are making a very typical newbie mistake of focusing on technical indicators. There are NO secrets there. An indicator is nothing more than a measure of past price and/or volume. You first need to spend many, many hours sitting in front of realtime or playback charts, trying to understand what's happening and why. Then you can engage in trying to backtest your observations. After quite a few years at this, my very best systems use no technical indicators at all. They only measure price in relation to past price. That's it. Nothing more.

Finally, your 'creativity' will come in systems development, not in trading. Creativity during the trading day will be your ruin, because it will engage your emotions, which you need to keep under wraps. If you feel like you need a creative outlet, then pick another profession or take up a hobby.

Good luck.

A good post. Very to the point.
 
Quote from Mr.Consistent:

I had a look at the breakthrough system of yours, the "SuperBands with linear regresion analysis" and it has shocking -49.38% maximum drawdown !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

I wouldn't trade such system even with "your money". Oh my God, your system will take your equity down to a half, and you're claiming to be someone that knows what he's talking about. I guess if I'd question your comments then it would make me "the most uninformed or simply arrogant trader" as you have pointed out, so I'll rather keep my comments to myself. :)

It's funny that you think I endorse it. Why else is it freely available then? It's a timeless experiment, but one that has managed to beat all of the ten thousand plus systems ever to be published on WL. If you ever get a chance, it looks pretty good on the NAZ100 with 1% of sizing. The drawdown is from 10% per trade up to 100% position sizing, which, obviously is something I don't recommend. That is to say, 100% in a single stock is not recommended, but it can be done with ETF's as you essentially hold 100 securities or more at once.

Since you probably aren't well versed in understanding these statistics on WL, I'll save you the trouble.

SuperBands, with Linear Regression Analysis since 1/1/1996 on the NAZ100
Long + Short
Starting Capital $100,000.00
Ending Capital $1,102,590.63
Net Profit $1,002,590.63
Net Profit % 1002.59% Compared to the S&P's profits of 37%, this is oustanding, and would beat BRKA over that time period as well.
Annualized Gain % 19.81% Say whatever you want. Good luck finding a system with this long of a backtest and that high of an APR
Exposure 8.89%

Cash Interest $127,905.48
Margin Loan Interest ($5,561.16)
Total Commission ($231,451.11) 0.01 per share

Number of Trades 29,285 high statistical significance
Avg Profit/Loss $34.24
Avg Profit/Loss % 0.75%
Avg Bars Held 1

Winning Trades 16,396
Winning % 55.99%
Gross Profit $2,503,521.50
Avg Profit $152.69
Avg Profit % 4.42%
Avg Bars Held 1
Max Consecutive 169

Losing Trades 12,889
Losing % 44.01%
Gross Loss ($1,623,275.20)
Avg Loss ($125.94)
Avg Loss % -3.91%
Avg Bars Held 1
Max Consecutive 225

Max Drawdown ($153,103.25)
Max Drawdown Date 11/20/2008
Max Drawdown % -23.87%
Max Drawdown % Date 8/31/1998

Wealth-Lab Score 169.5453
RAR 222.7115
Profit Factor 1.5423
Recovery Factor 6.5485
Payoff Ratio 1.1307
Sharpe Ratio 1.2275 This is probably where experience tells you something. Put about this way. If this is the most profitable system ever to be published, then it is the benchmark against which you should compare yourself. This tells me a long term sharpe above 1 is very good for systems.
Dghost Annual Volatility % 15.8595
Excess Return 19.4676
Ulcer Index 5.5967
WL Error Term 13.491
WL Reward Ratio 1.4683
Luck Coefficient 7.5119 This is low for a system so old.
Pessimistic Rate of Return 1.4147
Equity Drop Ratio 0.2617


A very simple system. Buy in 0.25% increment starting at 5.5% below the 10,1.5 bollingerband if the linear predicted value is greater than the band. Sell on the open the next day. Maybe it's not so simple, but it's done perfectly well for 12 years, compared to the S&P's NP of 37% in that time.

I feel like my other systems are better on a risk adjusted basis. Anyway, if you can get a system that looks this good "and can actually be traded" you'll be rich. That's the only goal really, is to be rich. This one has so many technical challenges that it's just plain easier to time the market than sitting at a computer all day.

Swing trading daily systems have made me more money in two years than in three years of my start percentage wise.

So definitely need to have a system. You just won't know your risk at all without one.

Again, that's the best backtest people can produce in WL and still be verifiable. I'm sure there's others reading this that can throw out their systems measures, but we won't actually know if they aren't just saying if priceclose(bar+1)>priceopen(Bar+1) then buyatmarket(bar+1,'');
 
Quote from bwolinsky:

No answer is required for your stupidity. They're two different systems dumbass.

So, dipshit, then why did you answer??

And congrats, you've created 2 money losing systems. Brilliant!

Don't quit your day job kid.
 
Quote from Georgii:


How does a trader begin coming up with such a hypothesis?

Watch the market a lot (and all inputs into the market), then notice patterns linking the inputs to future price behaviour. Form a hypothesis using observation and pattern-recognition ability/creativity, then test it. If it seems to work, try it with real money, using adequate and robust risk control. Rinse and repeat.
 
Quote from Cutten:

Watch the market a lot (and all inputs into the market), then notice patterns linking the inputs to future price behaviour. Form a hypothesis using observation and pattern-recognition ability/creativity, then test it. If it seems to work, try it with real money, using adequate and robust risk control. Rinse and repeat.

Okay, what exactly are "inputs", news? Or are you talking about tech indicators here?

Thanks...
 
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