Trading while having a job.

[jeffalvinson]

I’m sorry, but this kind of blind betting will never be fruitful without some kind of intraday context added in (bias, news, etc..). Informed seasoned traders love traders who bet this way. It’s low hanging fruit for them. I’ll assume those sitting bracket limit orders are displayed, which also makes you a magnet for adverse selection. This isn’t 1999. Today’s microstructure players will eat that shit up. No reason to display any limit entry order until you’re ready to pull the trigger.

Some math and volatility analysis specific to instrument can be done evening before. I already solved the intraday bias/context problem though trial and error.

You also have it wrong about unattended trading. I’ve had my order management unattended for years now, integrated with the bias/contextual factors. What you mention above is much simpler, and can be built robustly within hours by the right developer.

"To me, everything you said above, makes absolutely no sense.
It shows a real lack of understanding and experience in today's markets."
We are in a new age of quantitative analyst and programmed automated trading.
Your thinking and concepts are like a trader from the 70's.
Do you really think somebody is watching your retail placed orders? Seriously?
Its not the 70's! There is 10's of millions of trades out there in a day, no one is sitting out there watching small retail open orders! Large brokers like I.B. are all computer driven buying and selling.
I had an instructor at a Pristine seminar who said something that I have always lived by:
"Before you ever enter a trade you need to know 3 things:
The correct entry price (Buy Limit), the correct sell price (Sell Limit), and the correct Stop.
If you don't know and use those 3 things before entering a trade, you are guessing and guessing makes you a gambler, not an actual successful trader!"

Which one are you, an intraday guesser (gambler) or a successful trader?

 

[fan27]

Forgot automation, brain in chair required, trading is never that simple, it's a dream but sadly not based in reality.

I run 55 strategies fully automated. While that runs unattended during the day, I have been working on my startup company. Am I living a dream? Or perhaps it is all a simulation.

 

[Trader Curt]

I hate the words "paper trading". In the old days...people would literally write down their pretend trades on "paper" with a pen or pencil and then call it "paper trading".

The word or phrase now is "simulator trading" and it has a few purposes:

1) Assuming your trade method is backtested...simulator trading gives you an opportunity to determine if your backtest results have merit and simulator trading allows you to find problems with the trade method that obviously can't be seen in backtest results.

2) Simulator trading allows you to familiarize yourself to your broker trade execution platform. You'll be surprise at how many people not familiar with the platform make all kinds of weird mistakes when real money is on the line.

For example, clicking the Buy button when they meant to click the Sell button. Another one, they typed in 100 contracts instead of 10 contracts. Another one, they do not know how to setup an alert. Another one, they do not know how to use different types of orders for different trade situations. Another one, they didn't realize their computer doesn't have the system requirements to use the broker trade execution platform and many other reasons involving knowing your broker trade execution platform.

3) Simulator trading allows someone to develop a routine in applying their trade method or a routine involving preparation for the trading day.

4) Simulator trading allows the trader to compare the simulator results to the backtesting results to see if the metrics are similar...gives you a sneak preview about what real money trading will be like.

All the above will help with your confidence level, getting organize and if you can maintain your routine, maintain your discipline while trading on a simulator the exact same position size you will be trading with real money...

Its a lot better than ignoring the simulator and then jumping into dark waters of live real money trading.

Just about everything you do in life...you practive it prior to doing the real thing. That's what education does to anybody that's attended school (e.g. elementary, high school, college, job intern)...education shows us we need to practice, practice and practive prior to do the real thing.

That was the first take away I got from school as a kid. Read through the homework...answer the questions in back of the book...read through the homework again...have a friend or family member test you with some questions...

Next, you go to class and take the real exam while being nervous, fearful and prepare for any question. After the exam...there's a sense of release and accomplishment and then you start the whole process of practicing again for the next exam.

Hopefully, you've developed a good routine and you know what it takes to get good grades in class.

As for your job...its your guarantee or backup plan if you screw up your trading. Do not quit your job until you've proven with real money for a minimum of a few years that trading can replace your job with benefits and you've examine the real costs of trading with your tax accountant, loved ones and occupational hazards of the profession as a trader.

You mention you set your stops and walk away from your computer. Seriously, in today's age of high tech...set alerts on those stops to send you a message to your cell phone (keep your cell phone with you at all times when you set those alerts).

wrbtrader

That is some really good advice, I think I'm going to spend an hour a day just practicing on it. Thanks

 

[digitalnomad]

I run 55 strategies fully automated. While that runs unattended during the day, I have been working on my startup company. Am I living a dream? Or perhaps it is all a simulation.

I don't know why people can't grasp the thought, and what part of "I’ve had my order management unattended for years now" they don't understand. Not sure if it's envy or disbelief. I had the vision to automate in 2000 when guys were running around with flip phones, and I was toting around a big heavy Fujitsu tablet.

 

[digitalnomad]

Do you really think somebody is watching your retail placed orders? Seriously?

Of course, but today it's basically a few big players trying to pick everyone off.

I had an instructor at a Pristine seminar who said something that I have always lived by:
"Before you ever enter a trade you need to know 3 things:
The correct entry price (Buy Limit), the correct sell price (Sell Limit), and the correct Stop.
If you don't know and use those 3 things before entering a trade, you are guessing and guessing makes you a gambler, not an actual successful trader!"

Ok boss. Why don't you show us how we can possibly know the correct intraday entry levels the evening before (as you mentioned) market opens, without even knowing where the market will open. This is craziness. Who teaches this stuff?

 

[Trader Curt]

you cannot daytrade and have a full time or another business.
daytrading is a full time job.

even swing trading is too distracting to professional or people who own businesses. cause time is money. trading consumes too much of your time.
swing trading is short term positions from 1 -3 days.

people who are professionals or business owners work 50-60 hours per week. so daytrading is not practical or possible.

most retail brokerage account traders are college students, seniors. housewifes, part time workers, unemployed or people with crappy jobs. same crowd as the slot machine and blackjack table crowd in the casino. majority lose from brokerage stats. cause they invest in the 90% of scam stocks or trade worthless stocks or overleveraged or `gambling`instead of `trading``

No it's still doable. You just need to have a few hours of spare time every day to make sure the start of each trade goes according to plan. And if it does, then you can either take profits early or risk a little bit of profit by setting a stop loss and going about your day.

Swing trading works better for me because there is always a chance of making money while your working or asleep. And when you wake up your trade is either stopped out with a little bit of profit, or it is still trending so you can move your stop loss higher.

Of course the platform I use lets you trade 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

 

[smallfil]

"To me, everything you said above, makes absolutely no sense.
It shows a real lack of understanding and experience in today's markets."
We are in a new age of quantitative analyst and programmed automated trading.
Your thinking and concepts are like a trader from the 70's.
Do you really think somebody is watching your retail placed orders? Seriously?
Its not the 70's! There is 10's of millions of trades out there in a day, no one is sitting out there watching small retail open orders! Large brokers like I.B. are all computer driven buying and selling.
I had an instructor at a Pristine seminar who said something that I have always lived by:
"Before you ever enter a trade you need to know 3 things:
The correct entry price (Buy Limit), the correct sell price (Sell Limit), and the correct Stop.
If you don't know and use those 3 things before entering a trade, you are guessing and guessing makes you a gambler, not an actual successful trader!"

Which one are you, an intraday guesser (gambler) or a successful trader?

Jeff, nice to see you. Did not know you took the Pristine Seminars. I did not take the Pristine Seminars but, bought the DVDs and manuals from a student so, I pretty much understood
the method. It atleast, gives structure to your trading. Added my own twists to it and risk management of my trades to improve on it. Still refining my trading plan. Probably, will add position trading to my small regular account due to the huge tax advantage of long term holdings. Still trading options on my IRAs.

 

[jeffalvinson]

Of course, but today it's basically a few big players trying to pick everyone off.

Ok boss. Why don't you show us how we can possibly know the correct intraday entry levels the evening before (as you mentioned) market opens, without even knowing where the market will open. This is craziness. Who teaches this stuff?

With EFT Options: (9 years to develop this program)
I do not choose my own option entries. My computer program outputs the entries automatically the evening before, based on mathematical computations and formula's from that day's option price action of calls and puts
price action.....i.e.....Open..High..Low..Close..Consecutive Up or Down days....Volatility....etc...

Important Note: For Option Bracket Orders I often wait to see the opening price of the
proposed trade option, because if the option has a gap down opening below my program
entry price, I then have to adjust the Sell Limit and Stop parameters in the Bracket before transmitting the Bracket.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With Long Stocks (Pristine training from the 1990's):

[Up Trending Stocks] (as determined by Higher Highs and Higher Lows above a common
Rising Moving Average):
Step 1: 3 to 5 Candle Pullback to a reliable rising moving average, followed the next day by a
Step 2: COG (Changing of the Guard) Hammer candle or small green candle following
a 3 to 5 candle pullback at or near a reliable moving average; followed the next day by a
Step 3: Trade Trigger: Price moves above the prior day COG's high price. Enter +.10 above the the Prior Day's COG high price.

Bracket Example:
Step 2 COG high price of the day = 50.00
The next day after Step 2 COG, Set the Bracket Order for the following Parameters:
Buy Limit: 50.10
Sell Limit: The Previous High Price "before the 3 to 5 candle pullback."
Stop: -.10 below the Step 2 COG Low Price of the day.

Important Note: With long stocks, you can transmit the order before the open. Why?
Simple, you want the stock to move at least +.10 above the prior day's COG high price, or the order will not fill.
If it opens way above the COG high +.10, it will usually (but not always) come back to your entry and fill.
If it opens way below the entry, it will have to move back up to my entry point to fill. That way the stock shows strength.

Pristine 101

 

[tenny1886]

Of course, but today it's basically a few big players trying to pick everyone off.

Ok boss. Why don't you show us how we can possibly know the correct intraday entry levels the evening before (as you mentioned) market opens, without even knowing where the market will open. This is craziness. Who teaches this stuff?

i am still working on being a persistant profitable trader. I really try to move with the market whether its going up or down. small gains and small losses no home runs. todays result from est 10:30 - 2:30.
still need to cut down on number of trades.
( if anyone could educate me on the results based below, anything that needs to be improved do let me know)

 

[tenny1886]

I've been studying the psychological aspect of trading, and how your mental state affects your trading decisions. And one thing I've been thinking about is how having a steady supply of money flow can affect your judgement when making trades.

I'm running a small business, that I can't seem to let go of and pursue my dream of being a successful trader. That consistant supply of money makes me feel comfortable. And since I'm trading with the comfortable feeling of knowing the steady supply of money is always going to be there, I feel more relaxed when I trade. That means that when a stock goes down after I enter, I get this calm, "Ok lets look at the bigger charts before we cut our losses" attitude.

I feel that if I didn't have a business, my attitude towards a declining trade would be "Lets cut our losses!! NOW DAMMIT!!!! attitude. But then again if I wasn't working I would spend more time trading and have more experience at having a better attitude.

I don't see how having a paper trading account can help with psychology either. Because knowing that all your money is fake doesn't help your state of mind. Instead I think I would treat it more like a gambling video game.

The big question is, should I cut back on my business to start trading better? Or do you think I'm doing right by sticking with my job and having a more comfortable attitude that will only get better as time goes on?

I have already decided that I'm in it for the long haul, but I want to at least have a nice gradual transition before I get there...

i was in your shoes, but with the business there was always the hustle and interacting with the customer service on daily basis, it consumed too much of time. So i sold my business and trying to transition into full time day trading. Mistakes i made was i never took trading seriously when i had the business, like never really commited to it. But my advice would be to concentrate more on trading without letting go of your business. Get a good employee who can run it and then try trading for say a few months before you commit 100% to only trading.