Trading the SLA/AMT Intraday

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See.. I'm actually of the opinion that being focused too much on observation ends up being a hindrance. When it comes time to put on a trade, all your observations give you a certain bias. But in the moment of that trade getting filled, this bias can be dangerous because it might prevent you from taking a quick loss, it might prevent you from seeing what actually is because your macro observations might be telling you something otherwise.

Given that we were in a range ever since hitting the top of the channel, the natural thing is to start looking for shorts. But for an intraday trader, waiting till the market opens to place a trade, none of that much matters. The focus really needs to shift to how to enter, and this is where the power of stats comes in of course. Who cares that we are at the top of a channel, who cares that we have been unable to make higher high, if a short sets up and you take it but it doesn't work right away, you've gotta abandon this, no matter what else AMT might tell you. I realize you have always said that you need to trade what you see right in front of you, but its almost like too much of the back story gets in the way of what is happening in the moment.

Now perhaps this is just my issue. But I almost think that a new trader would be better served not by seeing the big picture, but by focusing on the building blocks, which would be immediate direction, reason for entry, reason for exit, a small profit, and most importantly, rinse and repeat. To develop that trader's mindset and make it through a series of trades almost means you have to forget about how long the journey is. You always use the expression of not losing the forest for the trees, which is wonderful, but if your job is to walk across the forest, you do this by focusing on just the tree in front of you, making your way there, and then picking the next tree to focus on.

SLA works wonderfully well in a nice trending environment, but if a new trader doesn't have the luck of starting in this environment, then this gets dangerous, which I think many of us saw when we were headed into spring/summer where the moves aren't as huge, which is more than likely why so many traders take the summer off.

I think that in your teachings, you don't put enough emphasis on the issues a new trader faces. I haven't read the additions to the PDF yet, although I am aware that you added a section on fear, but when you present a trading plan that a person can use, but then say that entry and exit are trader's choice, you are literally leaving them going in blind. A new trader really needs a method where they can put on 10 trades, and hopefully after this first round, they come out breakeven or not down too much, perhaps hopefully even up. This therefore means that going for big swings, which is what SLA would help with, is only realistic if the environment favors this.

I do think that perhaps the most important thing for a new trader is to get in and out quick to get a feel for putting on a trade, trading real money, accepting a little loss, taking some profit, and most importantly, being able to do it all over again. The SLA once again can easily incur 5 point loses, and since there isn't a rule to take at least 5 point profits, often I've seen in so many other people's charts that a trade ends up having to be closed at BE or worse, even though it may have initially been good for 5 or 6 points. We were trying to be good by waiting for that line to break, and by being good, we unfortunately couldn't take some of those profits.

Now a 5 point loss might not be all that much in comparison to a 20 point profit which can be realized with SLA, but after several losses, us traders were getting out far too soon, or not even putting on the next trade as we should.

So my point is that although you know about fear, I'm not sure if you really understand or can put yourself in the shoes of a new trader since for you it must have been a long time ago. Your completely methodical, logical mind cannot understand how traders would go ahead and trade without a plan, and yet, this is what is happening over and over again. You not understanding it has no bearing on the fact that it happens. So I think that a method which is devised to help a struggling trader has to take this into account. The SLA assumes that a trader already will have a trader's mindset, and this is a huge miscalculation in my opinion.

I think that if a trading plan had a requirement that 10 trades have to be taken, a 3 point loss will be automatic, and a 5 point profit would be equally automatic, then perhaps most of us could find some way to risk the $600 plus commission and follow through with this for each and every trade. (I say $600 because if each trade fails, you lose 10x3=30 points plus comissions... but clearly each trade won't lose) If this setup had a 50% win rate, and we actually got through this series of 10 trades, then we might perhaps see that a series of trades is vital and this would go a long way towards developing the trader's mindset. But the SLA is far too lose for a new trader, and although you have the 1 point entry rule, the exit is up to the trader, and there are also far too many reasons to skip SLA trades. So developing a trader mindset with this trading plan is extremely difficult, and if a trader cannot easily develop a trader's mindset, even a solid trading plan won't help.

Furthermore, by using things such as behavior to enter or exit trades, this really muddies the statistical nature of trading because all of this is so subjective for a new trader. You and 40D might be very good at nailing what looks to be behavior that shows strength or weakness, but for a new trader, this might almost be random. And there is of course nothing worse than random entries. I tried for months to get someone to show me behavior, to point it out on a chart, any chart, take a clip of a video of the right tick, anything to show me this behavior. 40D did try, but sometimes he used a 20 tick chart, sometimes he used a 150 volume chart, and most of his replies were always just to watch some some action that spreads out over a 2 minute period. So much happens in that 2 minute period.... was all of it part of one huge setup?

Anyway, so I think the SLA is a wonderful way to manage a trade, and its perhaps a great way to trade a higher time frame chart, and it might even work for 1 minute charts if a trader knows how to avoid a range and can take multiple 5 point loses and not sweat it. But this is a tall feat for a new trader who hasn't yet developed the trader's mindset.

http://www.elitetrader.com/et/index...via-price-action.281995/page-160#post-4069398
 
Although I see that right after this comment... you started calling me deaf which now of course focused the attention elsewhere unfortunately.
 
k p said: I'd like to ask for an explanation of what you mean here before I jump to conclusions but I guess I will just go with the the obvious one.

I don't deny that trading without having a solid plan isn't the smartest, and losing $1000 in a day is foolish, so its fair to say that I am deaf with regards to advice surrounding my trading. But I do wish you were able to address some of the things with regards those pesky lower time frames.

Again, deaf.

As I said long ago, there are games being played here that I have occasionally played because I thought that my posts might benefit someone who's following along but isn't necessarily keeping a journal or who is at the time only curious. But at some point, even he who understands games risks becoming an enabler, which is the chief reason why I stopped working with hobbyists (one doesn't always know ahead of time).

The chief game is "Why Don't You, Yes But" (WDYYB), though there are also elements of "Alcoholic". Some players have begun to slip into "I'm Only Trying to Help You". Needless to say, these are all pointless exercises.

Put at its simplest, kp has no interest whatsoever in becoming a winning trader. If he were, he would have developed a trading plan a year ago. But he didn't want to. Still doesn't. So all the "keep at it" cheerleading serves only to exacerbate and perpetuate the problem.

One can understand why at least a few of those who've tried to help here may end up feeling like chumps since they are in all important aspects ignored. But if nothing else it should be clear that trading failures are not the result of conspiracies of one sort or another but of a refusal to take all of this seriously. And if the subject has no interest in taking his trading seriously, then why should anyone else do so?
 
Well done Db!

How about an acknowledgement that some of the issues I address with regards to SLA being difficult for a new trader in light of proper trader's mindset are in fact real? There really isn't anyone trading SLA right now via 1 minute charts who is successful. Yes they developed their own rules, and yes they did their own testing, and yes what you teach about trading has been incorporated into their plan, but nobody is trading the SLA plan as you have outlined.

But I'm getting far too tired so you can reply by pointing out more things to me, thereby getting the last word, and I will leave it at that.
 
I simply don't understand all the micro-analysis you're doing. Shortly after the open this morning price breaks through the descending pre-market trend line with conviction (by about 4 points) and then pulls back to the breakout level 4295.25 on the 1min chart. So you trail a buy stop 1 tick above the 1-min bars and you're long at 4297.75 or so.

You place a 5 point stop and target and you get your profit.

Or you trail your stop below the 5-min bars and end up scratching the trade on the break of the 9:50ET bar low.

Or you hold the position as long as no previous swing low on the 5-min chart breaks down (you're still holding and you're up over 10 points).

Just pick a couple ideas and test the heck out of them. Apply rules until something works consistently. Breakouts and "hook" turns off pullbacks to breakout levels provide positive expectancy if you take the time to develop a simple plan around them. You won't get perfection; you won't get no losing trades; you will get a positive expectancy trading plan.

The fact that you can't do this and use sim trading until you master it leads me to believe you have a gambling addiction. Looking back at static charts is great for IDEAS, and it's great for gathering stats on a set of rules, but it's not valid until you can apply the rules and make money in sim.
 
There really isn't anyone trading SLA right now via 1 minute charts who is successful
40D is, apppently?
I think we need a chatroom to see who can ACTUALLY make it work in realtime, because really, anyone can draw a few lines on a chart and come back at the end of the day to claim various trades from these lines. Even you, KP! :)
On trade2win, some of the most respected gurus (Wasp, for example) turned out to be fakers living in a fantasy land.
You never know!

I think learning from and following someone is a good idea, but you need to be convinced that they are in fact a profitable trader themselves! Otherwise you may aswell 'teach yourself'! The effect would be the same :)
 
Trading Rooms/Chat Rooms

by “edabreu”


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After more than 5 years' full-time trading and about 100 trade rooms later, I have a few thoughts about how to save yourself a bundle of headaches and heartaches and maybe a few bucks as you search for a trade room.

First question is why do you need a trade room? Simple answer is that in the beginning it can help you get through some of the learning curve, and you have a place for some sympathetic response and support for your trading woes. Complicated answer is you really need guidance but cannot afford a 1-on-1 mentorship.

A good trade room should help you make money while you learn. Unfortunately, with 100s of methods and as many trade rooms out there, how can you wade through the junk and concentrate on the better ones?

I have a few criteria that I think are an absolute must for a real trade room where your chances of succeeding and MAKING MONEY WHILE LEARNING are high.

Number one - You must be able to see the moderating trader’s charts in real time.

Number two - You must be able to see the trades entered in real time either through the moderator’s order dom or chart trader or some method where it is apparent that the trade was entered, filled, and managed.

Number three - You must be able to follow the trades, or at least most of them. This issue gets a bit difficult in a fast market and may need some adjusting.

To my mind there are three basic types of trading rooms. One is where it's just pure trading, minimal instruction. Another is where the education has more emphasis, and trading takes a back seat...hence few trades. The third is a hybrid: a steady stream of trading towards a set room goal, some Q&A once the daily goal is met, and a scheduled series of ongoing educational sessions in addition to the room's daily trading. So, first you need to decide which is right for you.

Here's a tip. If you are considering a trading education in a particular trading method because you have none of your own, then look for the education emphasis. Otherwise, if you have a few good setups you know, and have some of your trading education already underway, then look for a trading room that will add to your knowledge and help you make money as you learn their methods and tools. If, however, you have traded a bit and have some tools and know some setups and yet nothing is working or going well for you, then look to the hybrid.

Regardless, remember the #1, #2 and #3 rule. DO NOT SETTLE FOR ANYTHING LESS. If a person hangs out their shingle and asks for your money in return for a service, then you better make sure that service is to your liking. If you are unable to see the trade moderator's charts and his trade entries then pass that place up. It may be a good place, it may not. But without the visual verifiable evidence, you will find yourself not only having to watch your own chart but also having to compile in your head what is happening and keep that picture going along with all the other pressures of trading.

I do not care what excuse is given; there is no excuse for not showing real-time moderating trades taken in real time. Technology is not an issue, money cannot possibly be the issue, so it must be something else? Let's see...fear, exposure, stop fluffing, doubling up or bad trading habits or what? You tell me.

So, there is the absolute newbie (and it's going to be painful) who really needs a lot of luck to avoid the garbage rooms and there is the trader who is just looking to improve and there is the trader who really needs a better set of tools and methods to get him out of his funk.

So if you have found a room then the best way to research the room is to spend a few weeks just listening and watching. We are conditioned for immediate response syndrome, instant gratification syndrome and these are detrimental to your trading health. We can probably all agree on that. If you do take the time to watch and listen, then keep a notebook and write down every trade call, the time and the particulars: targets hit, stops, etc., and review it after market while looking at your own chart. Don't even look at your own chart while doing the assessment. Concentrate on what's going on in the room because if you decide on that room, you are going to have to do the next very important thing to get the most out of the room: trust the trading moderator and his trade calls. Why? Because you want to be able to make money while you learn.

So your next task is to see if the room makes sense to you. Can you follow the logic of the trade moderator? If he is a really good trader, he may be a lousy moderator and vice versa. So you need to know that before you join. Look for verifiable results. Verifiable results are the trade records 1st hand...not some spreadsheet made up afterwards, or some list of trades posted in a chat window (even if in real time). In Ninja it's pretty easy. Look for the trade list records unadulterated right out of Ninja. Look for the summary records.

I have heard a lot of traders complain that sim doesn't count. Well, I think that is wrong thinking. What you need to see is the trade time of entry, the target completion and the stop. Add a tick of slippage in one direction, if you like, to the trade and see what it looks like. Often, a moderator will move to sim if he has hit his daily goal. The better moderators are not at all shy about letting you know they have moved to sim. I think it very unreasonable of traders who insist that a moderator continue to endlessly trade throughout the day without some kind of stopping criteria. The concepts of over trading, pointless trading, mental fatigue, and plain stupidity come to mind if anyone thinks that trading without some kind of daily goal or quota is going to make you a better trader. On the contrary. So why should a moderator who trades his own money be forced to practice bad trading habits just because you as a member may have strolled into the trade room at 10:56 a.m. and want a winning trade? Well, guess what? By 10:56 a.m. most good traders are done for the day! So, once the daily goal is hit and if the moderator is any good, then you should not have any problems with his moving to sim. What's important is does he continue to call winning trades? Do the tools continue to give high probability setups? Can you see his trades?

So, now you have a room you think is going to work for you. You took the trial, you signed up for 1 month. BTW, Do not accept a room where you are required to sign up for a longer specified term...this is bs. If the room is a good room then there should exist the confidence that you will be so pleased and satisfied that you will return of your own desire.

Now, remember the part about trusting the moderator's trading? This is where it is important that you accept that fact and live with it. You are not going to catch every trade call...no matter what room you are in. It’s just the way it is. Hesitation, you coughed just as the trade was called, a bug distracted you...whatever...it’s going to happen that you will miss a couple. So, the bottom line is that to get the most out of any trade room AFTER you have done your homework and decided is to take every room trade, period.

Your homework should already have told you the performance expectation, the style of the room’s moderating trader, the basic methodology and trade setup rules, etc. Your job now is to learn the method and the setups in great detail, practice them under guidance, and make money while you learn.

I have been in some pretty crappy rooms (now I know they were crappy) and some pretty decent rooms (of course these are the ones I abandoned because I did not have my own act together). Currently I do not need a trade room. If you are at that point then congratulations! If not, then even if you join any trade room, remember to look forward to the day when you can graduate and trade independently, consistently successfully, and live off the profits of your hard-earned accomplishment.

--edabreu
 
As regards the above, if anyone knows of any trader who provides a trading room which abides by the three rules listed and who is willing to provide said room at no cost to the participants, please let us know.
 
the most valuable thing to learn about trading isn't how to use tools per se, but how to think conceptually about markets, and the human behavior that moves them.
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the primary difference between amateurs and professionals is the ability to characterize and manage risk effectively.
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The majority of retail participants are unqualified to work in the industry, possessing neither applicable education nor experience to call on when making decisions related to financial markets. Based on experience it seems that most retail traders do not possess a strategy with a mathematical advantage, nor do they have a specific risk management protocol in place and just as importantly, they generally do not keep accurate records nor do they review or evaluate past trades with any regularity. As a result, if the strategy they have chosen does not work, they are usually unable to recognize it in time to avoid significant financial loss or “ruin”.
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First, learning to anticipate and prepare of opportunities is critical to my success, and in my class I teach students to anticipate (in fact we anticipate a very nice opportunity Sunday evening). Without the ability to properly characterize market activity and anticipate the likely result from one day to the next, you are at a disadvantage with respect to other properly prepared professionals..(how much of a disadvantage is subject to debate of course).

With regard to prediction, of course no has a crystal ball, however at some point, if one survives long enough, it is possible to not only evaluate events in terms of probabilities, but on occasion to in effect "predict" future events with good accuracy...I am sure my students would say that they see me do this almost every day....

Finally, it occurs to me that to an observer with little or no natural talent or limited experience, it may look as if a trader is anticipating and predicting events....(I hope not to insult since one can be successful either way), however from that perspective almost everything a really talented person does may seem improbable or even impossible (for those who play golf, look at what Tiger Woods was capable of at times)....

"Steve"
 
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