Trading schools-good or bad?

As others have observed, there's a lot of nonsense out there, and I've investigated a decent share of it. I do have some specific recommendations.

1. There's one chatroom that blows all the others out of the water, imho. It's moderated by Ken Calhoun, the same fellow who has been posting on this thread. It is distinguished from the others in that a) there is constant teaching of superb quality (Socratic method); b) the approach is highly systematic, and all details of the system are disclosed; c) there is no bs allowed in the room, yet the atmosphere is, to me anyway, highly enjoyable; and d) the precision and performance of the real time calls are unreal.

(Note to Robert (posting here as rtharp): using a random sample of 84 sequential trades and pessimistic assumptions about stops, the system expectancy calculated as average R-multiple over these trades is 1.5 with 10-20 daily trades. Ken advocates stops of 1/8-1/4, and I assumed fills at -3/8 to make some allowance for slippage, which will depend on order routing skill. With 1/4 or 1/8 stops, which Ken says is the norm for him, the expectancy figure is way better of course.)

The online course (dtu)is also excellent, though still in progress/under revision.

2. There is no room that deals with trading psychology or mentality, a topic brought up by one of the other posters in passing. Robert's dad is one expert in this area Mark Douglas is another.

3. Avoid eGoose, guys named Ollie, mtrader, and others who advise risking 2 points to chase one point, try for 1 point on stocks trading at $198 (well ok, not many of those left), and generally charge more for less. Just my opinion, of course.
 
Many thanks re kudos on the room... agree also w/earlier post re some are good some are bs for trading education.

Not all trading methods are suitable for all traders. Some sites still recommend swing trading (if you can believe it!) in this market. It's good advice to try out a lot of what's out there, you will be able to smell the bs from many sources, the 'gems of truth' in others.

For authentic training, I like Barry Rudd ( http://www.sceptretrading.com ), Tony Oz ( http://www.stockjunkie.com ) and Tim Bourquin ( http://www.traderinterviews.com ) Also, the free fibcalc program http://www.parttimetrader.com and http://www.quotetracker.com (for news mgmt) and steve nison for candlesticks (forgot his url).

I dislike the site that recommends in their "play of the week", for example, short CCL with a 1 point stop loss and just a 1-2 point profit target on a swing trade, as having a 1 point stop and a 1-2 point gain is poor risk:reward.

My personal style is, buy 2-day high breakouts, short 2-day low breakdowns, trade stocks w/over 1.2mil shares/day volume and at least %5 intraday volatility (eg 2 points on a $40 stock). And, I advocate stops of no greater than 2-3 spreads, looking for profits of +1/2 to + 1 1/4 or so.

Careful, precision trading is required in this market. (not scalping, not loose swing trading)

Anyways, best wishes to all. I think daytrading is much safer than investing, we nail winners and keep small stops. No hoping, only careful level2/sector charts and 1-min candlestick chart based daytrading for me! :)

Ken
http://www.Daytrading-University.com
 
No one here recommending http://www.undergroundtrader.com? I personally think they are not bad. Have heard from other traders who use the chatroom, and so far its been good feedback. I was and still am drawn to it, as it fits my trading style, that is strict technical analysis with time frame of only 1 to 40 mins. And no positions at end of day. Its what you would call scalping or microtrading.

Not everyone is suitable for this kind of hectic trading style as it really requires you to be very focused. A trip to the toilet could and have actually cost me hundreds of dollars.

Yup, and if you would like to check it out, you could actually preview the techniques they use everyday in their book titled The Undergroundtrader.com guide to Electronic Trading by Jea Yu.
 
Originally posted by Malcolm2

<1. There's one chatroom that blows all the others out of the water, imho. It's moderated by Ken Calhoun, the same fellow who has been posting on this thread. It is distinguished from the others in that a) there is constant teaching of superb quality (Socratic method); b) the approach is highly systematic, and all details of the system are disclosed; c) there is no bs allowed in the room, yet the atmosphere is, to me anyway, highly enjoyable; and d) the precision and performance of the real time calls are unreal.>

I visited the Ken Calhoun site and there are entirely too many wins and too few losses. Of course, the wins show large gains and the losses have no amounts associated with them, just that they were "stopped out". ;-) Mr. Calhoun got very defensive when I asked about it. Told me that he doesn't want or need my business and he is "rich and retired in Hawaii", probably off the hard earned dollars of beginning traders.

"If something seems too good to be true, it probably is."

I'd take any money planned for http://www.Daytrading-University.com and use it to buy some good books.
More...
 
Comparisons of call performance ignore the most important potential value of such sites, which is education. As Robert Tharp will tell you, a competent mentor is an enormous edge, and he'd never dream of trading without one. At TTO, there's constant teaching and interaction, other sites I've checked have guru-style 'buy this now' approaches where the operators never explain the trade and seldom if ever answer questions about them. The tto site focuses on a systematic trading style that can be modeled fairly easily by many, and as mentioned previously, it's fully disclosed and reinforced on an ongoing basis.

That said, it's definitely the case that one problem with any 'performance record' is that all the calls are hypothetical. They do not reflect difficulties encountered with execution (human error, isp failure, insufficient liquidity, etc), limitations to be encountered in buying power, as could occur if many trades are made simultaneously, and so on. I agree that such records would be more useful if somebody were taking all these trades in real time so that actual fills, both gains and losses, could be calculated directly. To my knowledge, no room does this. Nevertheless, Mr. Calhoun teaches taking defined maximum stops manually, trading share sizes small enough to match ISLD orders or SOES mm's directly. My calculations for expectancy assumed all losses hit the maximum stop, but, as indicated, no slippage, since as a first pass it's appropriate to address the system, not the skill in execution. Moreover, I've had the opportunity to watch as these calls are made in real time, and compare the instruction to what's available in the popular press and other web sites. By profession I'm a scientist. I look at raw data, evaluate its quality, and make simplest case inferences for a living. In this case, comparisons can be quantitative, and should be. Do a trial, track the trades for yourself, run the numbers, and report back.
 
I have to agree about Ken, I have been on his chat for just three days and have already learned more than any other place. He goes to great lengths (IMO) to explain what he's doing. I have absolutely no doubdt that I will learn to be an excellent daytrader in down markets as well as up markets: assuming he will continue to teach us for a few more months. I too am a retired scientist and as far as I'm concerned---Ken Calhoun is a very good trader and TEACHER FOR US NEWBIES. I personally hope others will ignore him---and I'll have less competition in the near future.
 
Brooks, as I said to you in my emails, any stops we take on any live trade calls are by definition -3/8 or less. Well over 70% of my alerts consistently yield at least +1/2 to +1 1/4 points profits, as any of the hundreds of people who've been in my room can attest.

I am someone who takes trader education and training seriously, and work hard to make sure my traders are well-prepared to trade, by doing technical analysis, chart pattern trading and conservative, close risk management.

I could certainly waste my time going through and calculate "ok we stopped out -.2 on AMAT", "stopped even on KLAC" type of thing, I would rather take that time to work on answering trader emails and developing new content for DTU.

Even Tony Oz says "I love the site" about DTU, and I have well over 2,200 satisfied traders as customers worldwide.

I do not have patience for ill-thought out questions. Take a look at the transcripts of any of the months at DTU for yourself to see how successful we are.

There are too many bs sites out there, mine is not one of them.

I hope you'll take the time to learn, and ask around, before attacking my reputation, integrity or character. I am an internationally published UCLA grad with a solid corporate background and successful trading record.

Please listen to all the trader interviews at Tim Bourquin's excellent http://www.traderinterviews.com site , including mine, and decide for yourself. I am very proud of all the hard work I've put into my site, my services, my track record, and our team accomplishments for traders around the world at DTU. :)

For all we know, you work for a competitors' losing site or something lol.

Ken Calhoun
http://www.Daytrading-University.com


 
Oh, and thanks Malcolm, Gene, for the kind words - appreciate it.

Generally, people's reputation is built by word of mouth, which I think is great.

Look further down the page too at the notes I have on performance at other sites, eg many amateur sites trade stocks like cien/jnpr, and take large stops. I would rather trade semis, biotechs and others with much better risk:reward ratios and use very small stops for our traders.

My performance record is correct, and I stand behind it. Simply go through any of the transcripts and compare the alerts and live trade calls with your charts (I like esignal.com), and you will see that they all verify out to within 1/16 point on all alerts correctly. I need to make sure that everything is documented accurately, which it is.

In fact, I've even offered free time in the room to anyone who wants to take the time to generate the performance record for me, as it is time-consuming, detailed work. So I even offer to have my traders generate the performance log.
My "books", my calls, are wide open to having people audit them, check them out yourself etc, that's fine with me. I'm open and honest in how I run my business, and my personal life. Life is short - I believe in doing things right.

The fact is, I work hard to be an effective trainer and trader.

Ken


 
I agree with Ken and the others that have posted here with regards to profitable stock calls. I liken call performance records with a "p**ssing in the wind" contest.

It's a simple process. Most sites offer a free trial. If the trader finds the service fits their personal style and is helpful, they stay. If they find it doesn't fit their style, they leave. Many use this stock call "performance" as an excuse to focus negative energy.

The focus on our site, like DTU, is not on what calls make the most money, but rather how to teach the trader what to look for and how to manage the trade. Once that is learned, the money will follow for a job well done. I personally could care less if our traders do the opposite of our calls, as long as they're following an established profitable plan and are doing what is personally right for them.

Regards,
Chris

http://www.tradewindsonline.net
 
Sounds like everyone agrees that these sites should take down their performance records. They don't seem to clearly say whether they are actual or theoretical trades. If claiming to be actual, then the poster should be willing to provide copies of account statements on request.

These performance records appear identical to extravagent claims in trading magazine advertisements.
 
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