Trading Methods & Techniques

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"I did not expect to be attacked over my chart examples....& from there it grew to a personal attack from dufferdon, why ? "

Well, as you continue to seek clarifications while still criticising me, here goes.

If you cannot stand one probing question about your technique, even if pointedly phrased, without getting all aggressive-defensive you will never be a good teacher. Please take that as advice rather than an attack.

Regarding personal attacks, please check the record. I believe it was you who made a whole bunch of snide remarks about me and my character. I asked questions about your technique, your motivation and business. You couldn't handle them without getting personal.

"asking for somebodys account statments online or on the internet is not a fair thing to do to anybody........, it really is a persons private business unless they are soliciting money "

But that is exactly the point. You are soliciting money through your commercial operations at your web-site and that's why my question was fair. In my opinion, people claiming to be profitable traders while running a commercial trading advisory service should be required to prove it. I am entitled to my opinion, whether or not you like it.

I have assumed it is a commercial operation you are running. You do not quote any prices there, but it does talk about a free trial. If I am mistaken about this and you are simply running an educational service you have my unreserved apology. If not, grow up, become more professional, get a thicker skin and drop the whiney "poor-me" attitude so evident in your posts.

You can take that as a personal attack or advice. It's up to you.

Whether or not you return to the board is on no consequence to me. I will not go out of my way to make things difficult for you, but I will still feel free to ask the kind of question I did at the start of this debacle of you or anyone else. Where it goes from there is up to them and depends on whether and how they chose to respond.
 
Well, the "chartwiz" poll has received a fair bit of response and I think it's pretty easy to conclude which way the wind blows.

42 -- total respondents so far

35 -- voted that the contributions were valuable (discloser: my vote fell here)

3 -- voted that the contributions were only a commercial

4 -- voted that questions should be asked by Katie Couric rather than by Shepard Smith.

It's pretty clear looking at the ratios, that the masses want Chartwiz to stay and continue the interesting contributions. It's also clear that like all of us he should expect the tough question now and then.

Suck it up man...we want you to stay.

JB
 
Thanks guys< I am going to a xmas party & leaving early today & wanted to check the boards........,............I will work on a video this weekend basing it off the dow theory for todays markets, it will be a good training video that is the basis for technical analysis as far as understanding the 3 trends in the markets & how to see them better..........dufferdon, lets put it all behind us, I see your reasoning, i spoke to the owner of elite & he explained to me that there are lots of phoneys out here & ruin it for others, I promise I am not a phoney, & i am not weak to say the least & would never hurt anybody, I have no reason to....I have traders & friends that look at my posts & I dont need to do anything that would jepordize this, personally I would like to see more work from others that have had alot of success in the markets & help bring the ones that trading isnt working for just yet up to a profitable level, if just helping to master 1` patterm thats great, sometimes that 1 pc of the puzzle is there & you dont see it.....myself & Don Bright & Tony & Brandon & others as a team should & continue to give to those that need it......this is a geat board & we have alot to add to it as a whole......Tony is a solid guy, family man & trader & helped me thru his work & books & I thank him as thousands have already....Don is giving good work & helping & Brandon is a good solid stock picker & has alot he could add also by his free room & also here giving training ideas if he ever would do it...................but lets move past it, looking forward to doing alot of work for you all in the future & providing a solid understanding of reading & seeing the trends better .......thanks everybody

Look out for my Video by Sunday night....Chris
 
I just posted this on the Self Talk section & feel its important, it strays away from the technical side...but I felt important to share....I read a message that somebody had fear of pulling the trigger so i replied......


Trigger Fear.........
I feel that traders that have a fear of pulling the trigger are fearful because of their lack of confidence as its pretty obvious, but we all look for that special method or setup or technique, that bullflag that divergence that overbought stochastic the huge gap that execution system to get you in 1/2 a second faster than the other one....that special charting service the secret is on the time frames , rather than using a 5min chart , the 38 minute or a 56 minute chart that nobody uses is the key..or better yet, a special mechanical system that you paid 2.800 for & 300 a mo to get signals that works until you actually commit money because you got involved & exited when the system said hold................all these things are NOT the key to trading & not the key to get you over your fear or inability to make money, there is a certain synergy that must happen for you to profit. I could put the best bullflag pattern in front of all you & I bet 50 % will agree & buy & of that a high percentage will lose money getting out to fast or exiting or gettng scared or taking profits to soon & the other 50% will miss the point of the pattern & disagree & not enter....from that we will have 10% winners on a 80% + pattern......they happen all the time, every TA book & everybody talks about that pattern & why do we still have traders that cannot get it right ? synergy .........Trading is a math & science game, Fib numbers pattern recognition, ect.........& is also an art & intuition game, those 4 concepts need to be synergistic with one another........a trader in fear of losing money is basically not understanding price & patterns, this is one problem that needs to be worked on, & working on that ebb & flow of the markets of understanding there are trends within trends within trends on many time frames & this although is confusing to many, is one key to decreasing the fear, if you where able to see the patterns & see your support or resistance on different time frames & feel that you could risk .25 cent on a trade rather than having it drop $1 against you because you cannot see a risk point, this would take away fear , having that art, that intuition to know to look at maybe the NYSE TICKS for a flush for a buy on a uptrend day when the markets retrace, the small things the synergy is key, yes we need positive input we need that, we need to always be on top of our game & stay focused & I don't agree you could make money just being positive......this is not amway & we are not going to rah rah ourselves into success & take away all fear...going to church is a great thing & praying but that alone is not going to make you a success, learn those patterns also, learn the synergy of different time frames, ......you see that 1 min chart rallying straight up & running like its on a mission only to fail back down like it hit a brick wall.........it did ,,,maybe a price resistance above from a prior low just days before or maybe it hit into a all-time high or 10 day high....or had a 50% retracement on higher time frames, you have to have that synergy of MATH SCIENCE ART & INTUITION & have a POSITIVE OUTLOOK, one does NOT work without the other, & its something 99.% have no concept of.........this what I shared tonite should be read 15x by those that are fearful of pulling the trigger or lost at sea in the ebb & flow of the markets waves......anything I could do, please email me or message me here...I am here to stay and here to share...........God Bless...Chris
 
Hello all!

I dont feel "old" enough or of enough expertise to comment but I simply had to. Come on guys, has the human stupidity and envy really no boundaries?? Let not contribute to the old adage...:( ET iIS a wonderful, knowledge base we all agree on that. We also, im sure agree on that its impossible to have a base of 9 k shares (members :p , im hooked, lol) and its impossible to have only the good stuff without the garbagge.

Also I think that the members like Candle, Qwik, Nicodemus, Don, TONY:) sorry if I forgot anyone are intelligent enough to separate traders from ... well... the rest (likes of TradeRX spring to mind :cool: ) and to continue to add valuable input to this community.

So, Chartwizz, PLEASE stay, hype your site or dont I dont care, as long as you give other things for free I dont care, you also have a great site so its OK to promote it. One more thing, I was once also banned from posting a link to my site (completely amateur) where I posted charts simply for the ease of wiewing and discussion with other traders so I had NOTHING to sell.

Have a great weekend all and keep up the wonderful work!

Sincearly,
Alex
 
"you have to have that synergy of MATH SCIENCE ART & INTUITION & have a POSITIVE OUTLOOK, one does NOT work without the other, & its something 99.% have no concept of.........this what I shared tonite should be read 15x by those that are fearful of pulling the trigger or lost at sea in the ebb & flow of the markets waves......anything I could do, please email me or message me here...I am here to stay and here to share...........God Bless...Chris"

OK, this is the thing I have waited for! Awesome post btw.

Now, to get a little more specific, my problem of understanding markets is that I have realized that it can all be very relative -it can go UP and it can go down. For. ex Take CMCSK. It was in a small uptrend for 3 days and it set up Tonys Skyscraper. Naturally on the 6th Nov I should be looking to short it and stick with it. BUT! Instead I started thinking that It could have been a uptrend and this only a small pulback (in fact that Is what I still think) and an opportunity to enter LONG.

So basically my fear of pulling the trigger comes from hearing "it can go up, or it can sink down noone really predicts the future" too much. I can be looking for a stock that is waay outside upper BB and normally ODDS say go short as a SKY. but thern I think Hey, this may be another bull market, lemme enter on this pullback. Throw in multiple timeframes and there you have a confused wannabe trader with awesome enthusiasm but no real guidance. And I cannot afford to try it all and get left without any more money and opportunity to try some more. im not whining here but the more I try the more I feel that only way to start trading and not loose too much and get frustrated and dissappointed is to have a mentor , someone whos been through it all and who can guide you little by little. Now, when I could get Candletrader or Tony to move to Croatia he he:cool: ...

I have learned all about the indicators, divergences, charts and other s*** over the internet, papertrading etc. but the real problem is incorporating it into a sensible picture, getting that ebb and flow of the markets, market mechanics...Patterns come in variety of shapes, there are a ton of things that influence it, Nuances (I think thats the word), other stocks behaviour, sectors, Good God theres like a zillion of things. (one thing that crossed my mind was that it would be nice to have a charting program that would draw bars inside longertimeframe bars... for ex 1min bars inside 5min candle then next 5 in the next 5 min candle or something...)

Dang, never thought trading could get this difficult...

Alex
 
While I have no intention of continuing my little contretemps with Chartwiz, I would like to pursue the general issue of vendor accountability. As this thread attracted TonyOZ, Brandonf, Toni, ChrisRT and perhaps other members of the on-line vending establishment who I don't recognize this is a reasonable place to continue.

The issue I wish to discuss is the provision of verified results to demonstrate whether the vendor of on-line trading information, whether it be chat-room calls, emailed stock picks or trading methods and tools, can use what he is selling to actually make money in the markets. As I remarked before they all seem remarkably shy on this issue and anyone who would do this would in my opinion have more customers than they can shake a stick at.

Let's look at it from the consumer's perspective. He is asked to put up about $200 to $300 per month at a chatroom to see if there is something really useful there. Although many sites offer a short term free trial I can say based on personal experience that the typical 3 days or week is insufficient to judge, particularly for a novice, whether the vendor really knows what he is talking about. I would say that a minimum of three months is required for a fair trial. This will typically cost the consumer $500 to $1000. In addition, unless he is simply prepared to sit and observe for this period of time (and I bet less than 1% do) he will expose capital to risk based on the influence of the site.

There are a myriad of vendors or various types. The consumer cannot try them all, so what does he go on to make a choice? Well many of them show results of sorts, often in the form of previous trades. How can the consumer rely on them though? They may simply be cherry-picked results not representative of the general performance. The entries and exits may not have been actually achievable. The actual call in say a chatroom may have been fuzzy. It is not sufficient in daytrading to point to a bar or bars spanning perhaps 20 cents or more as an entry and exit point, when the difference between profit and loss in a trade may be as a result of saving 5 cents through execution skills and when overall success may be measured as a few cents or less per share traded. Some only call entries and not exits. Others use marketing tricks like summing results of winning trades even though they were parallel trades in time. The list of opportunities for providing ambiguous, misleading and outright false information is endless. I suspect there are some scrupulously honest vendors but I also suspect there are some charlatans and perhaps even those who are outright dishonest.

Hence the contention I made that it is only results that count and that the only way to reasonably demonstrate results is through verified trading records. As I also said before, why are they so shy on this subject?

Tony Oz seems to have broad shoulders so lets start with a quote from him.

"Unfortunately, it doesn't matter. I will post my trades, my P&L for a certain period of time in question, my daily and monthly schedules, the total number of trades I make, etc., etc., etc., only to receive emails from those who still think I am a fraud. "

So Tony doesn't do it because he has tried to some extent and people still don't believe him. Perhaps there is a better way of doing it. More on that later.

Another reason I have seen may be paraphrased as "my personal financial information is no business of yours. I'm not running for office so I don't have to. " No-one is asking them to expose their entire financial affairs to public scrutiny. We just want to know whether they can actually trade and make a profit using what they are selling.

Anther excuse is that they are in the teaching business and that as long as the customer learns something that's good enough. Therefore it is not necessary to show their own results. Here's why I think that doesn't hold water. How do we judge their credentials as a teacher?

If Madame Cleo opens a commercial on-line psychic training program I can be reasonably sure that as I result of the program I will be no better at predicting the future than anyone else. However, if I register in an accredited university engineering program and take a bridge building course I can be very sure that the tools I am being given will be able to be used to successfully build a bridge at least by the profession in general and that the professor responsible for the course has achieved clearly recognized and verified professional standards. So how is the consumer able to tell who are the Madame Cleos of the on-line investment training world and who are the university professors? Self-proclamation is not sufficient.

In the absence of clearly defined professional standards I would like to be able to go to the teacher who can demonstrate that he can do as well as teach. All those altruistic and successful traders who are drawn to teaching by the love of the work should have no trouble proving they can do it as well. Those who are drawn to it just by the $300 per month chat room fees may be in a bit of trouble.

So, here's the standard by which I feel the industry should be held accountable.

Either the sites have prominent (not a 4-point type link) disclaimer that says something like

"Neither Joe Guru nor gurutrading.com warrant that Joe Guru or anyone else has been or will be successful in the stock market using the techniques and/or recommendations provided through gurutrading.com, that the examples provided may not be representative of overall results and that the information provided is for educational purposes only"

Then there is no suggestion that the teacher is a successful trader or (to state the obvious) that any student will become a successful trader. I think they should actually do this for their own protection. When you consider the triviality and obviousness of the disclaimers on many TV ads these days, it is only a matter of time before some lawyer sees the industry as a ripe field for class action suits based on misleading advertising. Even if they can back up the promotional material and public claims that they make in forums such as this it could still be costly to prove it.

A better alternative (and this relates to my comment to Tony earlier) would be to establish an account associated with the site. This need not be a large account, just one typical of a well-capitalized customer, say $20,000 to $50,000. This would in no way infringe on the private and confidential information of the vendor's finances that they hold so precious. Unless that is he doesn't have $20,000, which is a problem in itself for someone claiming to be a trading expert.

This account needs to be verified in some reasonable way. Nothing fancy required here. Just take the monthly statements to a CA every 3 months of so and have him produce a simple statement along the lines of

"The Joe Guru trading account increased in value by x% for the three month period from Jan 1 to March 31 as a result of n trades in y stocks.

Previous annual results were

2000 a%
2001 b%"

Post the verified results on the CA's letterhead on the vendor's site.

Then on December 31 withdraw all the profits and start again with a customer-representative sum.


So guys please explain to me why that is so hard to do or such an unreasonable expectation.
 
Chris

I notice in your examples that you use bar and candlestick charts. Do you use them interchangably? I have been using candlesticks from day one but have been using bar charts for a few days now because I noticed from a couple of your examples that some formations seem to show up better on bar charts. I must say that I'm beginning to like them.:)
 
OK whats the deal here???

I have just spent like hours strudying theese two charts and trying to make something out of them but... yup, nothing!'ccept that it could be a good short if it opens up and starts sinking below the 30 min support.. OR a nice long if this is only a minor pullback and it manages to break R on the daily :confused:

(below CPWR daily and below 30 min)

Any suggestions MORE than welcome 'cos this is a little bit frustrating
Alex
 
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