Trading is not like business!

Quote from Cache Landing:


Skills necessary to run a successful business are easily taught and relatively easy to implement. Not true with trading.


Depends on your personality.

I would fail miserably running most types of businesses.

As a Nerd type (INTJ), trading came quite easy after i taught myself.

This personality type, INTJ, is actually the most suited to trading, especially the non floor based trading we have now adays. This is not to say other personality types cant become traders, only it is supposed to be more natural for us.

Other lines of business will have other ideal personality types.
 
Quote from Cache Landing:

Skills necessary to run a successful business are easily taught and relatively easy to implement. Not true with trading.
How do you arrive at such an absolute statement? How do you know one can easily be taught and the other simply can't be easily taught?

I am self-taught both in both brick and mortar and trading. My university degree was largely (or completely?) worthless in both professions. Whatever they taught us there was a bunch of hog-wash.

Neither running a business nor trading was easy. Nothing was ever easy to implement. I made plenty of painful mistakes along the way.
 
Quote from Cache Landing:

It seems that there are many potential traders here looking for encouragement. The most frequent advice is that "trading is a business". Also, "just like any other business", is an oft cited phrase.

The idea that high frequency trading is a business just like any other, and will be successful if standard business acumen is applied, is a false notion.

Trading is unlike any other type of startup venture. And to be completely realistic, the characteristics required to be a successful trader are quite different than those required to be a successful entrepreneur. Those tag lines are simply marketing material for those who wish to convince Joe Sixpack that he'll easily be able to parley his experience and skills in building a plumbing business, into a residual income generating machine. Of course, he must first purchase the material that explains how.

Sure, there are certain common traits like tenacity and diligence. But those are merely generalities akin to telling someone that with hard work anything is possible.

1---Conventional business provides either a service or a product that is of value to the consumer. The successful businessman creates value through his own actions. Conversely, there is nothing that a trader can do to create value in the end product. In fact, he is actually doing something that is unheard of in business. His actions are much like someone buying a product from a retailer, and then turning right back around and trying to sell that same product back to the wholesaler who originally sold it to the retailer he bought it from. Certainly, if the price of the product increases enough, this strategy would be viable for a normal business. But if you were to write a business plan on this premise, you would be mocked.

2---A normal start-up venture benefits from marketing of various types. Admittedly, they will suffer from varying marginal return on marketing expenditures, but if the product/service is the least bit desirable, they will absolutely increase revenue through advertising. This is in sharp contrast to trading. No amount of marketing can increase revenues for a struggling trader.

3---In normal entrepreneurship, the successful business owner creates an entity that operates within his current skill set. This skill set was developed prior to starting the new venture. Traders take the opposite approach. They begin trading and hope to develop the necessary skills before their lack of appropriate skill puts them out of business. Imagine the recent high school grad who decides that he'll immediately get into business consulting. Rather than go to school to learn business, he sticks an ad in the paper and says, "after enough companies have contracted my services, I'll figure out what works and what doesn't". This is obviously a recipe for failure.

4---Related to #3 is the idea that a successful entrepreneur most often developed a skill set in the industry that plays to his natural talents. This is in sharp contrast to most prospective traders. The latter don't really have any idea what talents are required to be a successful trader, so again they find themselves in a backward process, hoping to first identify the necessary talents and then hoping that they currently possess the same.

5---As a continuation of the above, many skills are easy to come by without much natural ability. These can be learned through some light practice and study. The result is often a business that returns $30-100K annual income. The training for these usually comes from vocational schools. They will often operate from home, much like the trader, but in comparison, a $15K investment will likely be recouped during the first several months, and they can expect annual income near the national median during the first couple years. Trading does not fall into this category. The trader who develops a "vocational school equivalent" trading skill set, might expect returns of 10-20% annual. With $15K seed capital it will take around 20 years to reach the median income, and that is assuming that there are no withdrawals. The conclusion here is that the required skill set to produce the results necessary to make a living, are the industry equivalent of top tier surgeons. I would say that the number of people at this level is probably similar to the number of those surgeons too.

I guess what I'm getting at is the idea that becoming a successful trader is undoubtedly much harder than starting a successful business. To the extent that a little encouragement will not solve the problem of most struggling traders. The reality is that they are probably never going to become a trading success, regardless of how hard they work at it.


If you have discipline and a valid profitbale methodology it can be a business.

Take 100k and open a restaurant and give me 100k to trade for you. I have a very good idea who will still have thier intial 100k at the end of the year.

EF
 
Quote from Butterball:

100% annual returns in a near-normal distribution imply a catastrophic monthly drawdown of 100% to happen every 24 months or so.

If you shoot for astronomic returns you'll blow up faster than you can count to three.

This has nothing to do with account size this is simple statistics.

You're operating on a false premise that under all circumstances risk is equally proportionate to reward. That's not simple stats, it's flawed stats. Two opportunities for equivalent gain do not necessarily carry equivalent risk. That is precisely why we have stats like sharp ratios.

In fact, your statements are contradictory. If in fact risk were always equally proportionate to return, it doesn't matter what you do, you're just a series of coin flips away from blowup. The successful traders you refer to figured out how to tilt those stats in their favor.
 
Quote from Butterball:

How do you arrive at such an absolute statement? How do you know one can easily be taught and the other simply can't be easily taught?

I am self-taught both in both brick and mortar and trading. My university degree was largely (or completely?) worthless in both professions. Whatever they taught us there was a bunch of hog-wash.

Neither running a business nor trading was easy. Nothing was ever easy to implement. I made plenty of painful mistakes along the way.

Because I have a ton of experience in both teaching how to run a successful business and teaching how to trade. Give me a group of 100 entrepreneurs with a conventional business idea and a group of 100 new traders. For every one successful trader there will be at least five successful entrepreneurs.
 
Quote from Cache Landing:

Give me a group of 100 entrepreneurs with a conventional business idea and a group of 100 new traders.


You are selecting your 100 entrepreneurs, because they have a history?

What are about your traders?

Lets take the turtles, they were carefully selected based on various criteria (not trading history) and not just random wanabes off the street, and they were given a profitable business plan. I believe the success rate was over 50%.
 
Quote from Millionaire:

Depends on your personality.

I would fail miserably running most types of businesses.

As a Nerd type (INTJ), trading came quite easy after i taught myself.

This personality type, INTJ, is actually the most suited to trading, especially the non floor based trading we have now adays. This is not to say other personality types cant become traders, only it is supposed to be more natural for us.

Other lines of business will have other ideal personality types.

That's one of the points from the original post. If you perform a cross section of new traders, the group is wildly diverse. Filled with people who don't have and will never have the personality or talents to trade successfully. In most businesses a person knows before hand whether he possesses at least a good part of the necessary skill set.

What I'm saying is that for most businesses the rules for profitability are actually quite simple and definitive. "If you make this adjustment,... Such and such will be the result." Problems are easy to fix and the solutions are easily taught. Not the case in trading.
 
Quote from Cache Landing:

Because I have a ton of experience in both teaching how to run a successful business and teaching how to trade. Give me a group of 100 entrepreneurs with a conventional business idea and a group of 100 new traders. For every one successful trader there will be at least five successful entrepreneurs.
It would be fun to watch a trading version of The Apprentice. The title can even be The Trading Apprentice. Instead of the catch phrase "you're fired" it will be "your money is goodbye". I would watch it.
 
Quote from Millionaire:

You are selecting your 100 entrepreneurs, because they have a history?

What are about your traders?

Now you are getting there!!! That's the point!!!

The trading methodology is backwards. People rarely elect to start a business venture when they are completely unfamiliar with the method for success. They choose an industry they are already skilled in. This increases their chances.

Traders don't do this. They try to develop a new skill set after starting. It's backwards.
 
Quote from Butterball:

If you shoot for astronomic returns you'll blow up faster than you can count to three.

This has nothing to do with account size this is simple statistics.

I laugh at people who say "100% is possible, but only if you use a small account".

How sustainable is your 100% return, considering you always have your entire small account at risk?

Trading 1 contract CL with a $50K account and a maximum stop loss on each trade of $150, means that I have very little of my account at risk at any moment in time. My trades last from 10 seconds to sometimes nearly an hour, so time-wise my exposure is rather limited as well. In the even of a black swan event causing a massive move against me with slippage, the price of CL would have to drop or rise $50 before my stop loss order was filled to wipe out my entire account. I don't believe this is possible because of limit up/limit down regulations.
 
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