Trading is hard, very hard, damn hard

MrCharts · Aug 15, 2009

Quote from Redneck trader:

TrueProp,

It is easy to âblameâ others â example this student's failure

Did this student truly failâ¦.

Due to their lack of hunger/ persistenceâ¦., their lack of ability to ask good questions

Or

Due to your lack of ability to stimulate their drive/ motivation, (you put them off for some reason), or your inability to listen, decipher, and respond to their question â in a way they could understand

Now Sir PLEASE know

I am not attacking youâ¦. and this is a purely rhetorical question

I applaud your effort in fending them off from trading as you didâ¦â¦.

Iâm merely pointing out the greatest deficiency in mentorship, and why it so important we each become our own mentor

No one person truly knows anotherâ¦.. And I would go so far to pose â most truly donât even know themselves â very well

Who knows in a time yet to come this person may yet rise to be the greatest trader ever â or not â¦. Whoâs to say but that person?

Apologies Mr. Charts

I did what I must, as I told you I would... now Iâll return to doing what I must â as I am sure you will also Sir

eta - oops wrong thread Mr. Charts please ignore - but the rest stands

Respectfully

RN

I am to blame for having the name of the threads very similar

Back in 1580, a very honorable, and very wise man, explained to the world what was the biggest problem he saw for future generations.

To this day, his advice has been ignored, and to this day, his advice still stands true.

You have just, unknown to yourself, summed up what this famous man was trying to tell the world back in 1580!

Let us see who can come up with his name, and a "quote" from one of his famous writings that show just how correct he, and you, are.

I am glad that you do what you must do, for that is how all should act throughout their life, no matter what profession they are in.

BPtrader · Aug 15, 2009

Quote from TrueProp:

You are truly talking from YOUR PERSONAL experience. Luckily YOUR experience is YOURS alone...

Do you have the psychological fortitude to lose day after day in the begninning and yet still TRULY believe that you will figure things out and achieve success?

i am going to be blunt.

I don't think you are a trader, u have no clue of trading, my experience is a universal one, not an exception. If your eyes are half-open, you will know the 1:99 ratio in this business.

Also, u have no knowledge of psychology, there is no such a thing called "psychological fortitude," nobody "TRULY believe" something unless he is a retard.

By the way, do you trade? or you pretend to be a guru to newbies?

TrueProp · Aug 15, 2009

Quote from Redneck trader:

TrueProp,

It is easy to âblameâ others â example this student's failure

Did this student truly failâ¦.

Due to their lack of hunger/ persistenceâ¦., their lack of ability to ask good questions

Or

Due to your lack of ability to stimulate their drive/ motivation, (you put them off for some reason), or your inability to listen, decipher, and respond to their question â in a way they could understand

Now Sir PLEASE know

I am not attacking youâ¦. and this is a purely rhetorical question

I applaud your effort in fending them off from trading as you didâ¦â¦.

Iâm merely pointing out the greatest deficiency in mentorship, and why it so important we each become our own mentor

No one person truly knows anotherâ¦.. And I would go so far to pose â most truly donât even know themselves â very well

Who knows in a time yet to come this person may yet rise to be the greatest trader ever â or not â¦. Whoâs to say but that person?

You know Redneck, I would have to say that its a combination of his lacks and my own lacks as a mentor or, rather our clash of personalities quite possibly.

I am a very good listener, and I tried as best I could to answer his questions when he had them. The fact is, there are 6-7 guys besides myself that work within my team who are also very good high performing traders that he had access to, and was able to question at anytime that he saw fit -- if perhaps, i couldn't explain something in a way that he could comprehend he could ask the other guys, yet, he chose not to exercise that incredibly valuable option that so many beginning traders would love to have.

He did TRULY fail. I hired this guy and he told me he would stick it out for a year because he was committed to succeeding and was ready for the hardships. The fact is, he made it 7 months before he cracked and he quit.

Before quitting, during our many conversations he stated how asking for help is something that he had major difficulty doing. He was was filled with the idea of the desire to succeed rather than the actual desire that is required to succeed in this business. The fact is, most people can't trade successfully. Not because they are unable to learn what to do or how to do it -- but because this is a very psychologically taxing job from time to time. Psychological pressure is especially intense during your first months as a trader because you do nothing but constantly lose and it takes a toll on one's psyche. Plus he was in a $20k hole (expenses and trading losses combined) and had never had a day above $500. I can imagine his despair.

In my old students case, I think he made the right choice as far as quitting is concerned. He is a smart guy, just not cut out for trading. There's a fine line (a gray area) between being persistent and being honest with yourself.

Lastly, Redneck, I absolutely and unequivocally agree that we each must become our own mentors in order for us to push ourselves to perform at our highest ability. I recommend Dr. Brett Steenbarger's newest book and each of his blogs. Here is one if you're not familiar with him. http://becomeyourowntradingcoach.blogspot.com/

BTW, I've met the guy, he came to speak at my firm a few months ago and he knows his stuff. Good luck.

TrueProp · Aug 16, 2009

Quote from BPtrader:

i am going to be blunt.

I don't think you are a trader, u have no clue of trading, my experience is a universal one, not an exception. If your eyes are half-open, you will know the 1:99 ratio in this business.

Also, u have no knowledge of psychology, there is no such a thing called "psychological fortitude," nobody "TRULY believe" something unless he is a retard.

By the way, do you trade? or you pretend to be a guru to newbies?

Thanks for being blunt. Now I'll be blunt. I became net profitable as a trader in 7 months. Being a professional trader was and is the only job I've had since graduating college in 2006 -- I was hired as a trader in December 2006 and am still a member of the same firm. I'm certainly not a guru and I never will be. I am however a full-time, professional trader sir.

The guy I sit next to everyday and trade with daily, became net profitable in about 5 months. I have other traders in my office who took longer and less time to become profitable. I even have one friend of mine that was and has been net profitable ever since his first full-week of trading full-time. The longest I've ever seen someone stick around fighting to succeed is just over 2 years (about 27 months) and he is now profitable as well.

Also, I'm not going to idly sit by and allow you to offer the perception that a new trader must struggle for 50+ months before ever taking money out of the stock market consistently. Besides being outright false, it provides unnecessary discouragement to new traders. Everyone knows this is a tough business. Your struggle is your struggle sir. That struggle does not have to be everyone's struggle. With some guidance, maybe you wouldn't have struggled for 50 months.

BPtrader · Aug 16, 2009

Quote from TrueProp:

Thanks for being blunt. Now I'll be blunt. I became net profitable as a trader in 7 months. Being a professional trader was and is the only job I've had since graduating college in 2006 -- I was hired as a trader in December 2006 and am still a member of the same firm. I'm certainly not a guru and I never will be. I am however a full-time, professional trader sir.

The guy I sit next to everyday and trade with daily, became net profitable in about 5 months. I have other traders in my office who took longer and less time to become profitable. I even have one friend of mine that was and has been net profitable ever since his first full-week of trading full-time. The longest I've ever seen someone stick around fighting to succeed is just over 2 years (about 27 months) and he is now profitable as well.

Also, I'm not going to idly sit by and allow you to offer the perception that a new trader must struggle for 50+ months before ever taking money out of the stock market consistently. Besides being outright false, it provides unnecessary discouragement to new traders. Everyone knows this is a tough business. Your struggle is your struggle sir. That struggle does not have to be everyone's struggle. With some guidance, maybe you wouldn't have struggled for 50 months.

95% of what you said is false.

MrCharts · Aug 16, 2009

Both of you are right, and both of you are wrong.

Whilst Trueprop may well be speaking the truth, there are some things that he said that just do not makje sense, but hey, as we all know the main objective of those who "help" others is to make money, he may well be telling the truth.

For a new trader, to start off trading with a group, and lose $20K or more, is beyond belief!

Is there no structure at the house?

Was his initial trading not limited to 100 shares as most prop trading firms do with newbies.

Was he not taught the top down approach, or was he taking part in a gunslinger movie?

It all sounds so unprofessional and so silly, but hey, as I mentioned it could well be 100% true, as very few know how to teach people correctly, which, if anyone takes the time to look up my 1580 friend, they will easily see why.

BPtrader, is right to say that trading is hard, as it is very hard, damn hard for most, but for the few that will consciously make an effort to not allow this to happen, the trading is easy, very easy, damn easy.

I was once in the hard camp, but now I am in the easy camp, and I know that an astute person need not be in the hard camp, providing that person clearly understands the prerequisites to successful trading, and more importantly, does what he/she has to do, and not what they like to do.

So, trading can be either, what way it will be for the individual is the way that the individual will let it be.

As always, the answer lies within, not without.

A bad mentor, like a bad teacher, can severely stunt the intellectual and moral growth of the individual - question everything that is put to you, demand a simple explanation as to why the presenter thinks this is so, if the presenter can not explain so that you can see the reasons, then he/she is just one of herd that has got to make it to the front, but still travels around with the herd as they wander all over the place.

One of my colleagues rightly said,

"look up from below and you will see nothing, look down from above and you will see all"

In summary, there are no experts in the trading game, period, but there are a few that are able to make money each and every day, and there is no reason in the whole wide world why any person can not do the same, but they must know and follow some basic laws (rules) if they want this to happen, if not, then they will just end up like most do, eventually washed out,pissed off, and fed up with their lot, but you lot is as a direct result of your thoughts and actions - keep thinking the same way and you will keep getting the same results.

Shake hands guys, and post something that might benefit each other, instead of trying to prove that your point is right, for matter it not what you say, but what it greatly what you do.

Optionpro007 · Aug 16, 2009

Quote from TrueProp:

Before quitting, during our many conversations he stated how asking for help is something that he had major difficulty doing.

This is correct and very possible. A person who suffers from latent personality disorders will have a very tough time asking for help. I think the reason is that on the surface the person is convinced there is nothing wrong with them so asking for help is not even considered as a possibility.

I believe your statement about traders who can or have become profitable in 6 months or less. With the correct guidance and the correct psychological makeup though.

TrueProp · Aug 16, 2009

Quote from MrCharts:

Both of you are right, and both of you are wrong.

Whilst Trueprop may well be speaking the truth, there are some things that he said that just do not makje sense, but hey, as we all know the main objective of those who "help" others is to make money, he may well be telling the truth.

For a new trader, to start off trading with a group, and lose $20K or more, is beyond belief!

Is there no structure at the house?

Was his initial trading not limited to 100 shares as most prop trading firms do with newbies.

Well it's all true. $20k losses is not all trading losses friend. Read the post again. $20k in losses was his trading losses combined with the expenses my firm covered him on since December 2008 (that includes health insurance, commissions, infrastructure fees, etc...).

As far as your statement about my objective of helping being only in my interest to make money off of him is concerned, true and not true. The amount of money I would have gotten from his success if he had been moderately successful and had not become a high performing trader does not even justify me dedicating my time to him as a student. My goal in taking on students is the hope that they bring more ideas to the table that may help us all make more money.

I will say that my firm keeps newbie traders around too long in my opinion. I think many should be fired much sooner. But it works in the interest of new traders.

Was he not taught the top down approach, or was he taking part in a gunslinger movie?

It all sounds so unprofessional and so silly, but hey, as I mentioned it could well be 100% true, as very few know how to teach people correctly, which, if anyone takes the time to look up my 1580 friend, they will easily see why.[/QUOTE]

I think its funny that you imply that if we all knew "how to teach people correctly" that everyone would succeed. That is not the reality. My firm is definitely one of the best true proprietary firms in the country. Am I the greatest coach in terms of coaching new traders? Nope. Not close. Can't say that I am. There are 150+ traders in my office, along with people that perform very detailed quantitative analysis on our trading performance. My firm goes further than most firms in providing resources so that new traders can succeed and so that experienced traders can go from six figures to 7 figures and from 7 to 8 figures.

What people here seem to fail to accept is that, even with great resources (a great team of traders, quantitative analysis team) and say the student is energetic, focused, diligent and comes early and leaves late (basically an ideal student) he still may fail because he may not be built to be a trader. Facts are that (1)most new traders aren't the above ideal student and, (2) something like 90% of people fail as traders and never net enough profits to cover lunch at Burger King.

TrueProp · Aug 16, 2009

Quote from Optionpro007:

This is correct and very possible. A person who suffers from latent personality disorders will have a very tough time asking for help. I think the reason is that on the surface the person is convinced there is nothing wrong with them so asking for help is not even considered as a possibility.

I believe your statement about traders who can or have become profitable in 6 months or less. With the correct guidance and the correct psychological makeup though.

I majored in Psychology and Philosophy in college. I never expected it to be such an asset when I began trading. In terms of my student, he wasn't progressing as fast as he would have liked to, but he had improved in many ways. He had cut down on his overtrading and he wasn't taking big losers anymore, however his winning trades weren't very large. I told him slow progress is better than no progress.

But he quit on his own without consulting anyone in my office. He also quit in an incredibly cowardly fashion which caused me, and many other guys to entirely lose respect for him. Before anyone asks, no I will not go into detail as to the manner in which he quit.

Eleanor · Aug 16, 2009

Quote from TrueProp:

You know Redneck, I would have to say that its a combination of his lacks and my own lacks as a mentor or, rather our clash of personalities quite possibly.

I am a very good listener, and I tried as best I could to answer his questions when he had them. The fact is, there are 6-7 guys besides myself that work within my team who are also very good high performing traders that he had access to, and was able to question at anytime that he saw fit -- if perhaps, i couldn't explain something in a way that he could comprehend he could ask the other guys, yet, he chose not to exercise that incredibly valuable option that so many beginning traders would love to have.

He did TRULY fail. I hired this guy and he told me he would stick it out for a year because he was committed to succeeding and was ready for the hardships. The fact is, he made it 7 months before he cracked and he quit.

Before quitting, during our many conversations he stated how asking for help is something that he had major difficulty doing. He was was filled with the idea of the desire to succeed rather than the actual desire that is required to succeed in this business. The fact is, most people can't trade successfully. Not because they are unable to learn what to do or how to do it -- but because this is a very psychologically taxing job from time to time. Psychological pressure is especially intense during your first months as a trader because you do nothing but constantly lose and it takes a toll on one's psyche. Plus he was in a $20k hole (expenses and trading losses combined) and had never had a day above $500. I can imagine his despair.

In my old students case, I think he made the right choice as far as quitting is concerned. He is a smart guy, just not cut out for trading. There's a fine line (a gray area) between being persistent and being honest with yourself.

Lastly, Redneck, I absolutely and unequivocally agree that we each must become our own mentors in order for us to push ourselves to perform at our highest ability. I recommend Dr. Brett Steenbarger's newest book and each of his blogs. Here is one if you're not familiar with him. http://becomeyourowntradingcoach.blogspot.com/

BTW, I've met the guy, he came to speak at my firm a few months ago and he knows his stuff. Good luck.

Two years out of college and you are already mentoring other traders? Did you already make all the money you can ever spend? Can I ask why someone so young would already take it upon himself to coach other traders, instead of focusing on his own account? Or do you believe your own future prospects lie in being coach rather than a trader -- not that there's anything wrong with that.