Trading futures without commissions - Tradovate ?

[tiddlywinks]

Let me see if I have this right.

Last month, July 2016, I traded a total of 382 sides.
My current all-in rate is 2.01 per side.
My total commissions and per side fees paid in July totaled $768 (rounded)

With Tradovate it would break down like this:
Let's assume these were all NQ trades.

382 sides x 1.27 fees (1.17+.01+.09) = $485
Tradovate member plan = $200 (or less)
Total fees and plan costs paid to Tradovate = $685

Current commissions and fees = $768
Tradovate charges and fees = $685
$768 - $685 = $83 savings, an 11% savings with Tradovate.
$83 x 12 months = $996 annually

July (and August) have been slow months for me. I run closer to 600-700 sides per month. At that volume, if my calculations are correct, Tradovate would save me $200-$300 per month.

The above does not include OTHER costs such as Data Feeds, Software, etc. As mentioned, my current rate is an all-in, per side rate, with no additional per side charges.

 

[CALLumbus]

Tradovate should save you even more. Their advanced plan is 139$ per month, not 200$. So given your 600-700 sides per month you would save between 305 and 379 $ per month. And no additional fees, their monthly 139 $ subscription includes already market data fees for all 4 CME exchanges and the trading platform.

 

[hoodyap]

So.... Have anyone try Trado's platform yet? Is it real time?
Do they support Singapore trader? Anyway delay if using in Singapore?

 

[CBC]

The plot thickens..... hopefully a ending with a double twist!!

Not to worry ET we will get to the bottom of it.

Still no answers in terms of order flow. I'm presuming that there will be quite a mark-up on the trade. I'm thinking half a strike round trip.

I don't want to sign up with this Mob and then be getting charged half a tick round trip in orderflow..... or as the brokers call it "fills". So that will be more like $7.5 RT for the Emini .

Also, Dorman aren't general clearing members of Eurex. Meaning there is Dormans clearing fees plus (I'm presuming) BMO clearing fees as well. Dorman won't do this for 9c.

Just answer my question, if you avoid it again, then I will post dorman's orderflow statement up here on ET. What kind of orderflow fees are we looking at.

 

[CBC]

your order goes directly to the exchange and thats it. Maybe you confuse this

I am afraid you are the one that is confused if you think your order goes straight to the exchange Callumbus.

Tell u what, when you sign up. Put a few trades on ES. Get the statements, and then post them here. We shall see who is confused.

Now about order flow.

 

[CBC]

Since we are an introducing broker and not a clearing firm, we pay to clear the trade and there is a real cost associated to that. As you indicated, this is a pass-through fee, which is why it is not labeled a commission.

Some other non-clearing firms charge clearing fees (in addition to the commissions they charge) at a much higher rate, using that as a profit center, which is not the approach we are taking at Tradovate.

Also, just to clarify, we do not charge a per-trade commission, order routing fees, or platform fees and our membership plans are a flat rate.

Ok Tradovate, can u please confirm this:

I have $1000 in my account, I place a trade on ES and it goes 5 points in my favor..... then my account would now be $1500, minus the $2.54 fees.

So my account would be $1497.46? Can u please confirm this is what would happen every trade?

Thanks a bunch Tradovate.

 

[CALLumbus]

I am afraid you are the one that is confused if you think your order goes straight to the exchange Callumbus.

Tell u what, when you sign up. Put a few trades on ES. Get the statements, and then post them here. We shall see who is confused.

Now about order flow.

I have put on boatloads of trades with their FCM (Dorman) in the past. There wont be any difference with Tradovate, same FCM. If you dont get this, and if you dont get how futures trading works, then it makes no sense for me to argue with you, and no sense for you to argue with me. Lets just move on

 

[CALLumbus]

Ok Tradovate, can u please confirm this:

I have $1000 in my account, I place a trade on ES and it goes 5 points in my favor..... then my account would now be $1500, minus the $2.54 fees.

So my account would be $1497.46? Can u please confirm this is what would happen every trade?

Thanks a bunch Tradovate.

How can your account be up 500$ by trading ONE emini (ES) contract and being up 5 points ? Have you even ever traded a futures contract in your life ? Again, this is NOT Forex or CFD or some other kind of dealing desk bucketshops...

 

[garachen]

I am afraid you are the one that is confused if you think your order goes straight to the exchange Callumbus.

Tell u what, when you sign up. Put a few trades on ES. Get the statements, and then post them here. We shall see who is confused.

Now about order flow.

In the US you can't internalize or sell off order flow on futures.

Just stocks and forex.

They charge 9c per trade (or Dorman charges it and they pass it along. Whatever.) plus some small fixed fee.

They also tack on an extra 40c for ICE products in a non transparent way. All in, a reasonable deal for most people and a better deal than IB. The motivation behind the lack of transparency is what's baffling. Especially since it's probably - when accurately represented - the cheapest advertised option available.

It's this lack of clarity that makes people think Tradovate is somehow messing with order flow in order to make money. But, as I said before, in the US you cannot trade exchange specified futures away from the exchange. You cannot sell or internalize order flow.


If I were a retail trader evaluating a place to do business with I'd certainly consider them. Problem is, what happens when you need to get lower than 9c? Would they claim there's nothing they can do because "they" aren't charging you any transaction fees or would they go to bat for you and get your fees lower. From the response so far it sounds like the former. So eventually you'd grow out of them and have to move somewhere else.

Another strange thing. Why are they paying Dorman 9c? That's way high for someone acting as an account aggregator. 9c is what an individual should be about to negotiate on maybe 3000-5000 contracts per day. They should have been able to negotiate that fee way lower.

 

[CALLumbus]

Garachen, I dont think those 9c are too high. Take for example RCG, a huge broker and FCM, active on all major exchanges. But since they dont have Eurex membership, they have to clear their Eurex trades through another big clearing broker (wont mention the name here). Can you imagine how many Eurex trades RCG has every day ? And they still have to pay somthing similiar to the 9c per contract (wont mention the exact number here) to the clearer.

Sure it is possible that if you are a really large trader you will grow out of them one day. But you would have to trade very large volume before this happens, I would say north of 20,000 contracts per month. And even then only a handful of brokers will give you a better deal (Advantage Futures will be one of them). How many traders on this site do you think do more than 20,000 contracts per month ? I am pretty sure less than 1%. There are also enough traders around here that do very little volume (less than 500 contracts per month) or that just SIM trade, for them Tradovate will also not be the perfect match.
But I believe there is a whole bunch of intermediate traders in the vicinity of 500-20,000 contracts per month on this side. And exactly these traders could profit a lot from what Tradovate has to offer.