Trading for a Low-Paying Living

[mokwit]

Live somewhere like Thailand. Equity base: expenses ratio is much better. I can sit here for 10 years and pay the bills without making money trading (I live simply now). If I was in London I would have to be in a prop shop for the leverage. Here I can pay the bills with cash equities (no leverage) when the market is running.

First market to open is SGXNK at 6.45, with FX open for hours in NZ. FX, oil and Us products thin and slow in Asian hours and characterised by Jap exporters leaving MIT USD1Bn orders lying around at breakout levels. Better for equity Index Futs traders. DAX opens at 2.Other major downside in addition to thinness is much much greater O/N gap risk. Style may have to be adapted to latency

FYI open heart surgery is USD10,000. In Thailand few locals bother with medical insurance because of this , but corporate westerners who get really sick go home. Japanese come because of the price differential.

Tried the corporate thing - was genuinely happy only once. Ultimately I prefer to live or die by my own decisions not those of someone thousands of miles away. I have gone back into corporate world when the headhunters called and would not rule it out again, It was hard though and have have subsequently turned down offers also.

 

[FuturesTrader71]

Quote from nzbryant:

What kind of stats does your acctnt indicate?

I wish I could discuss them here. They are not what is being discussed here. He handles some large accounts with on and off-floor traders. The traders he has are very well capitalized (some of the biggest guys in the wheat, 10's, etc pits). He says that although this year has been unusually slow for them and they complain a lot, they are still making more money than anyone in most other professions. He gets about 4 blow-outs or so a year, a couple of dozen net loss accounts and the rest are floating to prospering. He does about 800 returns per year and has been audited on 2 last year (tax year 2003) and 3 (tax year 2002) the prior year. Out of these 5 cases, 3 dismissed, 1 had a penalty and 1 unresolved still.

I would say that he knows what he is talking about. There is no hummming or huhhhing when I ask him a specific question and given some of the clients he has.

Sorry I can't be more specific. The numbers are the way you see them because they reflect retail traders as well as investors, etc. I think you would get different stats from someone who only handles professional traders.

Best wishes to all.

 

[nitro]

Quote from prt_systems:

... with much less less than 1M in my trading account it is still possible to do OK .....

Most of the people that I know that are in trading are making more than 50K a year by the way - or they would be doing something else.....

with 1M, I would do 200K a year with my eyes closed and one hand tied behind my back.

nitro

 

[FuturesTrader71]

Quote from nitro:

If it weren't for the problem of good innexpensive Health Care, trading would have zero downside, even for the people that "only" make $50k.

With rising health care costs, sky rocketing education costs, sky rocketing housing prices, local governements going broke and thirsting for more taxes, sky rocketing commodity prices, should I go on in our rising costs of living?

Still, if you are young or are young at heart, nothing beats trading for the pure freedom and creative expression it allows, no matter how much you make.

nitro

Come on, Nitro...... Greenspan say inflation is completely under control and is hovering at only around 2%. I'm in the DC area and I haven't seen housing prices double every 3 years.... what the hell are you talking about man?

PS: Being sarcastic. I never understood where inflation is at 2% in this country.

 

[science_trader]

Quote from FuturesTrader71:


PS: Being sarcastic. I never understood where inflation is at 2% in this country.

same in EU...

 

[Remiraz]

Quote from risktaker:

With a $1-2 mil, one can trade and likely have a decent living. But, for most of the sub $50K accounts, good luck. This market just doesn't move.

$2MIL in those 4% p.a. FDIC insured accounts ($100k insurance per account, u might want to spread the risk) = $80k a year in interest.

$80k a year in interest....why trade?

Even with $1mil its $40k a year in interest. :eek:

 

[Boy Plunger]

Quote from smilingsynic:

Robert Green, a well-known accountant for traders, notes in the new (just got it today) September edition of ACTIVE TRADER magazine that (1) 64 % of the 1000 or so mark-to-market traders (trading for a living) he deals with LOST money in 2004; and (2) of those 36 % who made a profit, only 11% earned 50K or more. In other words, less than four percent actually made a real living (50K is not that much of a living, really).

Other than "Yipes!!," any thoughts or comments?

Yes. This guy needs a better clientele of traders to draw his conclusions and probably is in the process of writing a book i'm sure not to read. Some people will take anyone on as a client and allow them to self-destruct.

One thing i will agree with is that this business of trading and making a living at it is fraught with desperate ego maniacs that think that because they say something it must be true. Be the exception to the rule. This is what i wish for young dedicated loyal and decent individual traders and what i strive to attain.

 

[risktaker]

Inflation alone, eats up more than that. Funny thing about money in a bank. It evaporates like water.

Quote from Remiraz:

$2MIL in those 4% p.a. FDIC insured accounts ($100k insurance per account, u might want to spread the risk) = $80k a year in interest.

$80k a year in interest....why trade?

Even with $1mil its $40k a year in interest. :eek:

 

[nitro]

Well, I believe that he believes that there is no inflation, because the inflation he measures I think is the one that affects Wall Street more than Main Street, and I think that he has almost no effect on the common man's pocket in the very long run.

So, inspite of the fact that the FED uses the term inflation, I think they should split that term out into several types based on the effect that it has on the rich, the middle class, and the poor.

For sure, what they measure does not affect those three groups equally.

nitro

Quote from FuturesTrader71:

Come on, Nitro...... Greenspan say inflation is completely under control and is hovering at only around 2%. I'm in the DC area and I haven't seen housing prices double every 3 years.... what the hell are you talking about man?

PS: Being sarcastic. I never understood where inflation is at 2% in this country.

 

[gwb-trading]

Quote from smilingsynic:

Robert Green, a well-known accountant for traders, notes in the new (just got it today) September edition of ACTIVE TRADER magazine that (1) 64 % of the 1000 or so mark-to-market traders (trading for a living) he deals with LOST money in 2004; and (2) of those 36 % who made a profit, only 11% earned 50K or more. In other words, less than four percent actually made a real living (50K is not that much of a living, really).

Other than "Yipes!!," any thoughts or comments?

Robert Green and his firm does provide very good tax accounting service to traders. However let me point out that most of his clients are probably retail or low-end prop traders who are working hard to scratch out a living. As demonstrated in his comments; a majority of these traders are not profitable. Of those who are profitable; most earn a small amount of money. Trading is a hard way to make a living and very challenging. I also expect that many of his clients are under capitalized. These results mirror the percentage of failures in small businesses; most folks should not be surprised at the summary.

Some folks on the thread have questioned if if was proper for Mr. Green to comment on his clients as a broad group. My understanding is that most accountants are required to compile statistics on their clients (not on individuals, but as a group) and provide them to state-level & other business organizations. Much of this information turns up as public information in the form of economic statistics. I view his comments on his overall client base as no different then this.

- Greg