Trading for a living

gwac, I was in your situation 3 years ago. Back then, I had been working in the investment banking area for 5 years (therefore a lot less than you), set aside enough money invested in bonds to retire with a humble living, and because I really hate the hypocrisy of that industry I wanted to give a try to trading for a living. I was not a trader in my bank, I was a structurer with reasonable quantitative skills (enough to get paid 6 digits per year, in USD, base salary only eg excluding bonus), and I had been developping HSI models for a few years (I am living in Hong-Kong). Forward testing, everything seemed fine. I went live during my office hours, therefore combining both jobs... and it worked reasonably well.

Bear with me.

So here I am with my plan to quit my job. But instead of just quitting, I asked my boss to give me a 2 months vacation for family reasons (as a coincidence my father had passed away recently and my boss said yes immediatly, may be you can find another excuse for him to give you such long holiday). The reason why I asked a vacation instead of quiting outright is because I know me: I can fuck up... so just in case... lol...
I therefore started to trade full time, for these 2 months, and the experience has not been what I expected. I lost money while my models were making money. I think I identified the 2 reasons why I was making money while having a job:
1) I didn't have any pressure to make money at all, since I still had a 6-digit salary. Whatever happened... I was fine anyway !
2) I had no pressure at all from my positions since the pressure of my banking job prevented me from feeling any pressure from my personal trading.

Guess what... I went back to my office. Of course I continued to trade my HSI models... making money back again.

Based on my humble experience: take a long vacation and find for yourself if you can make money on your own. It could prove more difficult than you think, and your initial post suggest that you are aware of this possibility.

I have 2 other comments , if I may (personal opinion):

1) if all you have is 2 years of expenses and $75k, in my personal opinion, this is a bit tight to jump unless you really like taking risk. Myself I am not so risk adverse, I wouldn't do it. May be you are different though.
Think about it, say you need $20k to make a living. That's a 27% return on your 75k. Not bad for a new prop trader if you ask me !

2) you say you have 20 years of experience in FX trading and make 6-digit for your bank. Do I read you correctly ? Please correct me if I didn't read you correctly.
If indeed you are making 6-digits for your bank, and I mean no disrespect, this is not a fantastic result and as long as your bank keeps giving you a decent salary, keep it. You have to keep in mind that in your bank you have infrastucture and a platform that you won't have trading on your own, in addition of, in my personal opinion, your most valuable asset: CUSTOMER FLOWS.
Alright, here's where I am trying to get at: therefore you must be around 40 or 45 right ? With 6-digit in PnL per year it, and so "old" (again, no disrespect intended), it could be challenging for you to find a new job in the investment banking industry. ALL, I say ALL, FX traders for banks I know in HK (I mean those who keep their job) are making at least 3 or 4 bucks for their company. With that said, I know nothing of the US market and it could be that it is significantly different from Asia, so take what I'm saying here with a grain of salt.

Anyway, wish you the bests.

Ps: forget about the trolls of this forum, they're not worth your time.
 
Quote from DTM:

Maybe you should get your wife to regsiter an account and then trade it for her, doing maybe up to four hours per night to get used to trading your own money. Do it for a year and limit your funds to 10k. Slowly work your way into trading for your self and see what the pressure's like.

There's no law preventing your wife trading fx and would be the best way of seeing if you can do it without having to take unnecessary risks.

Good luck with what ever you do and hope you can make it on your own. Theres nothing like having the independance to run your own race.

Very interesting!!!!
 
Quote from jrkob:

gwac, I was in your situation 3 years ago. Back then, I had been working in the investment banking area for 5 years (therefore a lot less than you), set aside enough money invested in bonds to retire with a humble living, and because I really hate the hypocrisy of that industry I wanted to give a try to trading for a living. I was not a trader in my bank, I was a structurer with reasonable quantitative skills (enough to get paid 6 digits per year, in USD, base salary only eg excluding bonus), and I had been developping HSI models for a few years (I am living in Hong-Kong). Forward testing, everything seemed fine. I went live during my office hours, therefore combining both jobs... and it worked reasonably well.

Bear with me.

So here I am with my plan to quit my job. But instead of just quitting, I asked my boss to give me a 2 months vacation for family reasons (as a coincidence my father had passed away recently and my boss said yes immediatly, may be you can find another excuse for him to give you such long holiday). The reason why I asked a vacation instead of quiting outright is because I know me: I can fuck up... so just in case... lol...
I therefore started to trade full time, for these 2 months, and the experience has not been what I expected. I lost money while my models were making money. I think I identified the 2 reasons why I was making money while having a job:
1) I didn't have any pressure to make money at all, since I still had a 6-digit salary. Whatever happened... I was fine anyway !
2) I had no pressure at all from my positions since the pressure of my banking job prevented me from feeling any pressure from my personal trading.

Guess what... I went back to my office. Of course I continued to trade my HSI models... making money back again.

Based on my humble experience: take a long vacation and find for yourself if you can make money on your own. It could prove more difficult than you think, and your initial post suggest that you are aware of this possibility.

I have 2 other comments , if I may (personal opinion):

1) if all you have is 2 years of expenses and $75k, in my personal opinion, this is a bit tight to jump unless you really like taking risk. Myself I am not so risk adverse, I wouldn't do it. May be you are different though.
Think about it, say you need $20k to make a living. That's a 27% return on your 75k. Not bad for a new prop trader if you ask me !

2) you say you have 20 years of experience in FX trading and make 6-digit for your bank. Do I read you correctly ? Please correct me if I didn't read you correctly.
If indeed you are making 6-digits for your bank, and I mean no disrespect, this is not a fantastic result and as long as your bank keeps giving you a decent salary, keep it. You have to keep in mind that in your bank you have infrastucture and a platform that you won't have trading on your own, in addition of, in my personal opinion, your most valuable asset: CUSTOMER FLOWS.
Alright, here's where I am trying to get at: therefore you must be around 40 or 45 right ? With 6-digit in PnL per year it, and so "old" (again, no disrespect intended), it could be challenging for you to find a new job in the investment banking industry. ALL, I say ALL, FX traders for banks I know in HK (I mean those who keep their job) are making at least 3 or 4 bucks for their company. With that said, I know nothing of the US market and it could be that it is significantly different from Asia, so take what I'm saying here with a grain of salt.

Anyway, wish you the bests.

Ps: forget about the trolls of this forum, they're not worth your


I work for a very small FI (not bank)as a vp, I make the between
1.5 to 2m on very small flows, most of this comes from
my prop trading. The flows in half a day at some banks
would be what I get in a year. I manage the spot/forward/futures/ndf and option books. My totally comp
is around 250k.

I guess I have not made myself clear. I would be willing to
give myself 2 years (that is the most I will set aside in living expenses for this venture)and lose at most 75 to 100 k in capital, before i said forget it. I am sure I could use my experience/cfa and cmt (almost finished this) to get a job elsewhere If this failed, maybe not as a trader.

I would be happy to make 20 to 50 k in the first year, i have
no higher expectations. I am 40.
 
jkrb and all

Sorry I forgot to say thankyou for the response. I appreciate
everyones opinion, it has given me alot to think about.

Please if anyone has anything else positive or neg to say
keep it coming.


Again thankyou everyone.
 
Alright, with a PnL of 1.5/2m and a yearly compensation of $250k, would there be a way for you to swallow your anger a bit longer and continue to cash-in before you retire for good ? With a humble living (if you can accept that of course) you should be able to save quite a lot of money. 10 years from now, you should be $2m richer than now if you need 50k per year to live (is your wife working ?).

At 5% interest rate, $2m will bring you $100k in income per year.

Would that be enough ? I assume you have your own house and car bla bla bla...

The reason why I suggest this is because this is what I personally target. But this is because I work for the money, not really for the fun of it. I stopped finding the investment banking industry fun...
 
Quote from gwac:

they have a dollar coin with a loon on it. Its nickname is the looney.

The loonie... And there is a story that goes with it. Somewhere in the 80's, when the Canadian dollar coin was introduced, it was not supposed to be the loon design, but something else (can't remember what). But the Canadian Mint sent the dies to wherever they were supposed to go via a regular courier and the courier lost them. They were never seen again :-) So the Mint went to Plan B and the loonie was born. They should have put an engraving of Bozo The Clown on that coin :-)

True story...
 
Quote from DonCorleone:

gwac,

I think you should go all out. $75k is more than plenty, I think, especially with 100 or 200:1 leverage that most brokers give you. Be careful which broker you use. One time I had both OandA and GFT platforms open. They provided different quotes at the same time. :confused:

Best of luck!

What's the problem with that. Shoudln't you be takign advantage of the different quotes? I know I'm making money off that. Anyway, if gwac is looign at longer term movse a few pips shouldn't make a difference
 
Quote from jrkob:

Alright, with a PnL of 1.5/2m and a yearly compensation of $250k, would there be a way for you to swallow your anger a bit longer and continue to cash-in before you retire for good ? With a humble living (if you can accept that of course) you should be able to save quite a lot of money. 10 years from now, you should be $2m richer than now if you need 50k per year to live (is your wife working ?).

At 5% interest rate, $2m will bring you $100k in income per year.

Would that be enough ? I assume you have your own house and car bla bla bla...

The reason why I suggest this is because this is what I personally target. But this is because I work for the money, not really for the fun of it. I stopped finding the investment banking industry fun...



I know i should stay but my problem is I hate it so much.
The money is just not worth it.
 
Quote from gwac:

I know i should stay but my problem is I hate it so much.
The money is just not worth it.

Any chance they want to downsize in the future and give you a big severance package?
 
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