Trading for a living; only very few can

Quote from kickboxers:

as a profession of self-employment, you need to make a min. of $120,000/year gross..

a sales rep or real estate broker makes more than some traders.
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hmmm, I know a waiter at an upscale restaurant that makes more than 80% of those "professional" realtors.

And is there something magical about YOUR figure of 120K/GROSS?? For a capitalized and experienced trader, it's an extremely lame number IMO.

Of course, according to some of the posers, oops I mean posters, in this thread, 120K/GROSS would be attainable only if there is a pharmaceutically recognized mental disease or affliction.

Osorico
 
I've always thought ADHD for some, especially ones that don't seek that label but have it forced on them (such as school children who aren't paying attention well), is just another label for easily bored (and, a lot of times, highly intelligent). I can see how people like that would do well if they liked the market.
 
Turtle experiment proved nothing other than that if you pre-select 1% of applicants for intelligence, game-playing background, strong interest of trading, and then teach them a profitable system, most of them will not follow the rules and will perform worse than the S&P, and only a minority will do well. If any of them have natural trading aptitude, they will do well. If not, they will fail despite everything being handed to them on a platter.

One turtle made more money than ALL the other turtles put together. Given that two dozen of them received identical rules and training, surely that proves that trading *cannot* be taught to anyone, and that it is the personality and aptitude of the individual that is the critical factor for whether trading can be taught and/or learned effectively.

Bear in mind this was not a random group, it was highly pre-selected. I would love to have seen the results if they took some Hollywood actresses, porn stars, janitors and Mongolian yak-herders and tried to teach them trading. Lol do we need to say more? There is no way in hell they would as a group be teachable or make any money.
 
Well Cutten, you and I will agree to disagree. I am in the "trading can be learned" camp, you in the "you're born with it" camp.

For the record, I am not a "turtle", a trend-follower or a position trader. I trade index futures intraday, flat by eod, everyday. As for "longer-term" equity or other IRA-type positions, I am too proactive to be classified as anything other than short-term swing. I've learned what works for me.

Osorico

Just for fun, here is what the original Turtle "want-ad" looked like...
http://www.turtletrader.com/richard_dennis_turtle_want_ad.html
 
Both, can't be black or white. Like a bicycle, you need both wheels to advance. Trading is an Advanced Course, you need to have done an Introduction Course as a prerequisite in order to take the Advanced Course. You need to have an innate ability to learn by yourself or be taught to become successful. To scientifically claim that trading can be taught, we need a success rate of 100% from the students randomly chosen that have an average comprehension ability. On the other hand to scientifically claim that trading is born with, a proven successful trader must have succeeded from day one and the subsequent days since he didn't need to learn hard.

Quote from osorico:

Well Cutten, you and I will agree to disagree. I am in the "trading can be learned" camp, you in the "you're born with it" camp.
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Hi guys, interesting topic, and I want to chime in here. Hopefully my comments will be taken at face value, not, as some always tend to think, some Bright promo or something.

My answer is a resounding "yes and no" to the question about very few "can." And, the same answer applies to the statement about training/learning and intuition.

I have worked with hundreds of professional, full time and part time traders over the last 3 decades or so. On various trading floors, and within various trading venues. I honestly feel that a great deal can be "taught" - working strategies, as you've no doubt seen me mention a zillion times here on ET.... but I have also seen people taught the exact same thing work harder, have better instincts, more or less discipline etc. The results have been from astronomical successes to dismal failures (and that really concerns me). Same thing on the trading floors as within our Firm.

Somehow, some way, there is "something" that some traders have and others don't. That doesn't mean you can't be trained to make money trading, many can..but the level of success varies greatly. The "love of the game" has a lot to do with it. Understanding that there are no aboslute "systems" in the markets has a lot to do with it (so many spend so much time trying to fine tune something that may be flawed from the get-go).

Understanding "risk reward" has a lot to do with it. For example, studying how to play blackjack correctly can certainly help you become profitable, but the level of success varies greatly from player to player. A computer cannot beat the casino's (many have tried over the years, I could tell you some stories, LOL)....because you must have casino knowledge so that you can actually get away with counting cards. I was barred as recently as last weekend, LOL. I think I got greedy (and that has something to do with this discussion as well).

Anyway, good topic, good discussion, I just tried to add my thoughts.

All the best everyone,

Don
 
Quote from osorico:

Hi Hood;

Gotta say I DISAGREE... there is no so called "X-Factor" THAT CAN NOT BE LEARNED, associated with trading. Turtle Trading proved this point.

That leaves 2 aspects of trading, according to your post; a system and disciplined action.

Hang on, there is a nail on my wall that is loose. I think I'll use a claw hammer. And to make sure I leave no marks on the wall, I'll cover the nail with a small piece of cardboard. OK, all done.

If you didn't catch it...
(claw) Hammer = System
How to use the hammer = Discipline

Even with this silly example, it is easy to see why some would fail to some extent. Firstly, It was identified as a loose nail, not a lose screw. Secondly, a claw hammer, not a ball hammer or a mallet was used. And lastly, due to the environment, steps taken to reduce possible damage. This is learned behavior, not innate. Variations of the proven behavior, even if employed successfully, reduce chances for a successful outcome, either due to not knowing, or an arrogant willingness to forgo known disciplines. ADHD is not part of the equation.

Osorico
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I'd argue that the turtle trader situation proved very little in regard to "anyone" can trade. The reason is that, from my understanding, they did not let just anyone in. There was a pretty extensive interviewing process to seperate people out. I also do think there is an X factor. Anyone can pick up a guitar and learn how to play. Most people with time and dedicationi could probably also learn to play well enough to make money as a backup, recording guitarist, lounge player etc. But, there's only ever been one BB King, Hendrix, Slash etc. They had dedication, but they also had "it".
 
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