Trader and Modern Psychoanalyst looks at fear and greed

I have no way to use my emotions to overcome fear. I got really scared once, years ago, when a trade went the wrong way and I lost some long coin in a short period of time. That sent me into research, learning, backtesting, interacting with other traders, thinking, planning, etc. That fear is still there and I think it is healthy. I recall it a lot more than the pleasure of a successful trade. Maybe there are irrational fears and not so irrational fears?

:)
 
...permit me to be the first obnoxious mechanical trader to offer, though it is not germane to your issue, that we experience neither fear nor greed while in trades. Curiousity, boredom, and symptoms of ADHD are our problems. Why struggle to overcome fear and greed when you can simply make them irrelevant? My current problem is mastering the art of doing something interesting while maintaining the minimum required attentiveness to the market.
 
i guess if you are a mechanical trader, then you are right, you don't have the problem. hey one less problem is good....

i know a little about ADHD from the perspective of emotions but sounds like other than boredom that you have it under control....

best to you
 
Quote from neisykay:

I think you know that you have lots of company..... my biggest interest is ultimately creating a method out of modern psychoanalytic techniques that solves these common trading problems.

Thanks for your post.

D
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I am also a trader as well a part-time psychoanalytic therapist.

My thought is that the concept of counter-transference is one of the most useful pieces of psychoanalytic theory when it comes to trading. As maxpi said above, the object is not to eliminate your 'pesky' emotions but to know when they are distorted by your person or functioning as a useful reaction to market activity or risk in general.

Beyond that, the well known phenomenon of those who have held a looser too long tending to bail at the bottom or top can be explained by many psych theories as well as common sense and can be tradable.
 
resinate your counter transference concept "resinates" with me. When I grew up your were never supposed to say the words I choked. You were admitting you had emotions and therefore your could not control them and yet we all had them and boy did I hate feeling the tightness.

Then I saw John McEnroe freely admit he choked. (That must have been because he had such self confidence that he did not feel it was bad to do anything he did). 10 -20 years later every pro golfer admits they feel the tension (they have a routine that they use to try and function well anyway.)


It was because of sports I found much of the babble about psychology and trading to ring hollow. It seems to me you can learn how to trade or you can learn how to write systems. Much of the pychology talk I hear manifests traders lack of understanding about what trading really is.

I once had an edge and made a bunch of money. I know longer do. I know that I need an edge. It seems to me once you have the edge you now longer need the pyschology of trading. If you can not exploit your edge, then you need may need therapy.
 
yes... emotions have gotten a bad reputation.... moreso for men than women....but it is funny how they are also the source of desire and the will to succeed. also, how obvious they are in all of sports....

in a way my ideas are a bit like some martial arts..... use their strength as your strength. it is a bit of a tricky business to figure out what the prevailing or more importantly, the unconscious emotions are..... but once one does it, there is no limit to the success one can have.

i am wondering though specifically what it feels like - in the moment - when one is afraid that a loser is going to get worse or that profits will evaporate -

OR conversely, what it feels like when one is sure it will go higher but isn't....or worse yet, once one loses money and feels terrible about it and beats themselves up....which makes the next trades impossible.... until some equilibrium is again reached.

by feel - i am referring largely to the experience one has physically - clenching teeth, sick to stomach etc....
 
Quote from neisykay:

...in a way my ideas are a bit like some martial arts..... use their strength as your strength. it is a bit of a tricky business to figure out what the prevailing or more importantly, the unconscious emotions are..... but once one does it, there is no limit to the success one can have.
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I agree with jem to the extent that all the psych in the world will not help if you do not have an edge. Further more, and according to most psychoanalytic theory, the unconscious remains unknowable even in the most insightful individual.... Point being that I cannot imagine reaching a so called cruise control comfort in my trading. Anxiety is a natural response to risk and uncertainty and the market is always changing.....

So, I agree that "knowing" oneself is a valuable tool, but only one piece of the trading puzzle.
 
Quote from neisykay:

Hello everyone - I have been a day and position trader since the summer of 1994. I also have my Master's degree in Classical psychoanalysis from the University of Chicago and now am working on a doctoral degree through the Institute of Modern Psychoanalysis in NYC. Modern psychoanalysis is VERY different from the Freudian stuff we all know a little about....

anyway... I am doing a bit of a study on HOW fear and greed manifest themself in relation to trading decisions. I am interested in the FEELINGS traders get as trades are either working or not working....

The point of this is that I am going to try to write an useful article on how to USE THE EMOTIONS to overcome them - sort of the core of the modern psychoanalytic technique.

If anyone would like to tell me their perspective, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks, Denise
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denise,

my friend, dr. flavia cymbalista, has done extensive studies and is a pioneer in the field you are interested in. she can be contacted here

www.marketfocusing.com

best,

surfer d.
 
Interesting subject here is my offering on what happens in a trade from a scalpers perspective:

When I see something I like in the market I put on as much size as possible up to my limit at my desired price. As soon as the postion is on my stomach is tighter and I loose focus of everything around me except what the market is doing. If the positon goes in my favor I unwind according to the feel of the market and my stomach unwinds in proportion to the size of my position that is not covered. Once the position is covered my stomach goes from tight to light butterflies while looking for the next trade.
Another thing I noticed is as my size gets bigger over time my stomach tightness goes down compared to relative size, ie it's easier to take bigger postions once I've done it several times.

As for loosing trades, the same process but my stomach stays tight until it's all covered and I cover agressively(usually 10-15 seconds) then depending on the loss size my stomach stays tight and I go into a 'i'm up $x this month there will be some losses in the game of trading'

Scalp
 
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