How about the difference when it comes to getting fills on larger positions? Or what about those of us who are skilled at trading a PnL? It's harder than you think to "psych" your mind out and it is certainly easier to lose money with the reduced buying power.
Tower Hill Trading Agreements
- Thread starter traderCND
- Start date
How about the difference when it comes to getting fills on larger positions? Or what about those of us who are skilled at trading a PnL? It's harder than you think to "psych" your mind out and it is certainly easier to lose money with the reduced buying power.
I'll repeat myself: People are in the business to make money for THEMSELVES first, then maybe you....but they will not care much about you for a long time.
So you start a business.....you figure out how to get money and keep it. Like leasing companies....contracts most people don't really read, since they are signing based off hope, not thinking.
OK, send me $10,000 to fund an account. I teach you the ways of the guru, and let you use a computer. whoopee!! Then I charge you for office space.....come on, this is a business!!!! Then I charge you for lunches I bring up (making $5 off you, just to rub it in). Then I charge you for more things.....private mentoring, etc.....And if you leave, I keep your deposit. I will arrange to fly you home, making another $100 on your return flight. LOL
who thinks people that work in finance are great people? nobody.
you want someone to be nice to you......maybe go work at an animal shelter.
Now send me $10,000!!!
So you start a business.....you figure out how to get money and keep it. Like leasing companies....contracts most people don't really read, since they are signing based off hope, not thinking.
OK, send me $10,000 to fund an account. I teach you the ways of the guru, and let you use a computer. whoopee!! Then I charge you for office space.....come on, this is a business!!!! Then I charge you for lunches I bring up (making $5 off you, just to rub it in). Then I charge you for more things.....private mentoring, etc.....And if you leave, I keep your deposit. I will arrange to fly you home, making another $100 on your return flight. LOL
who thinks people that work in finance are great people? nobody.
you want someone to be nice to you......maybe go work at an animal shelter.
Now send me $10,000!!!
Trader will reimburse Tower Hill 30k????
Does SEC require a license from the trader who trades for a prop firm?
I'm currently trading for them myself, I started near the start of the new year.
I also was a bit iffy on the agreements, but being here a while I've learned some interesting stuff
A. The level of enforcement is pretty unknown to me. I've asked around and not a single person knows of anyone who has actually had to deal with Tower Hill's legal disclosures. I still find the rules way to vague myself, but I like this place so far and don't really mind.
B. You start out at 2000 dollars, a 10 dollar stop loss, and a maximum 5 shares position size. The idea is that you're gonna suck at first (very guilty of this) so once you get the hang of it they'll give you a bump in capital/position size/stop loss. Since in theory you'll be making money at this point, you should be able to reduce or eliminate your loss.
Increases in capital are completely at the discretion of the management. The compliance officer is pretty cool, and pretty reasonable so I have no complaints there, and from what I've experienced and the results of other guys the timing and rationale of capital increases are pretty fair.
They dont want to give you more size when you're just gonna increase the loss by that much more.
Only complaints I have:
1. The trading platform, which is very fast and has some nice sorters but very little functionality beyond that. Of course, its possible that's why its so fast in the first place.
2. Communication. I would say there are only about 40 people here in our office, and probably some remote guys too. No one really uses the chat for trade ideas, and its a fairly "do it yourself" atmosphere. We have the occasional guys who share ideas and I talk often to people from my training group and the guys I sit by, but communication is pretty tame. Half the guys dont even log into the company wide chatroom, so when someone points out that something big is happening many of them miss it.
3. The training itself. I left this for last because this was easily the most completely worthless part of the experience. The training is essentially "Here's how you use the software, here are some definitions, go trade". They aren't kidding about the "entreprenuerial environment"
I know other firms hire Assistant Traders to shadow their seniors, and learn from them but this is definitely a do it yourself shop.
Also the time it takes to actually start making money is going to be a pretty long haul. I know guys who have been negative for a year and havent made a cent. I think only about 15 guys (all older of course) take home paychecks, everyone else is still in learning mode.
Thats my two cents
I also was a bit iffy on the agreements, but being here a while I've learned some interesting stuff
A. The level of enforcement is pretty unknown to me. I've asked around and not a single person knows of anyone who has actually had to deal with Tower Hill's legal disclosures. I still find the rules way to vague myself, but I like this place so far and don't really mind.
B. You start out at 2000 dollars, a 10 dollar stop loss, and a maximum 5 shares position size. The idea is that you're gonna suck at first (very guilty of this) so once you get the hang of it they'll give you a bump in capital/position size/stop loss. Since in theory you'll be making money at this point, you should be able to reduce or eliminate your loss.
Increases in capital are completely at the discretion of the management. The compliance officer is pretty cool, and pretty reasonable so I have no complaints there, and from what I've experienced and the results of other guys the timing and rationale of capital increases are pretty fair.
They dont want to give you more size when you're just gonna increase the loss by that much more.
Only complaints I have:
1. The trading platform, which is very fast and has some nice sorters but very little functionality beyond that. Of course, its possible that's why its so fast in the first place.
2. Communication. I would say there are only about 40 people here in our office, and probably some remote guys too. No one really uses the chat for trade ideas, and its a fairly "do it yourself" atmosphere. We have the occasional guys who share ideas and I talk often to people from my training group and the guys I sit by, but communication is pretty tame. Half the guys dont even log into the company wide chatroom, so when someone points out that something big is happening many of them miss it.
3. The training itself. I left this for last because this was easily the most completely worthless part of the experience. The training is essentially "Here's how you use the software, here are some definitions, go trade". They aren't kidding about the "entreprenuerial environment"
I know other firms hire Assistant Traders to shadow their seniors, and learn from them but this is definitely a do it yourself shop.
Also the time it takes to actually start making money is going to be a pretty long haul. I know guys who have been negative for a year and havent made a cent. I think only about 15 guys (all older of course) take home paychecks, everyone else is still in learning mode.
Thats my two cents
I'm a complete newbie and considering signing on with them just to learn via remote trading. I can afford to not have any income for a while due to my other job but I don't have a ton of $ to invest. Is the training here really that awful? Would I be better off getting ninja trader and teaching myself how to trade with a tiny account?
I joined locally over 2 years ago when their training was a little different. I admit I don't know exactly what it's like today. But if you're expecting someone to tell you how to walk in the market and make money consistently, you're not being realistic.
Trading is really hard. I wonder if the people complaining about starting with "only" 1-5 shares are already successful traders, or people who want to be handed a way to make a ton of money right away.
I have been through starting at that size and slowly getting moved up as I made progress. Honestly every time I did well on the week I'd go ask for more size and they'd give it to me. Then I'd go have my worst week, at larger size, because I had not worked out how to be truly consistently profitable yet.
It is so hard to accept at the time but they are totally right. There is no need for serious size until you've shown them consistent profit. Not a few days, not a week. In retrospect, I clearly got moved up too quickly, which led to a larger negative PnL.
Guess what, that's real money. You have to make it ALL back and get to 0 before you get positive and then get paid a %.
That's trading.
The good news is -- it actually works. There is no guarantee. But once you go from losing at 20, 80 shares to making money with 400 - 500 shares -- and you're truly consistently profitable -- you made it. (And they are much more willing to move you up much more quickly after that.)
I lost money for 15 months -- thankfully at very small size. I took me about 2 months to make all of it back on larger size. Since then I've been profitable 8 of the last 9 months, and I make more every single month -- with the exception of December, which is notoriously slow.
Am I rolling in cash yet?
Hell no, but I actually make a living trading and feel like I'm just getting started. The upside is outrageous.
The bar to entry is quite low. There are pros and cons to that. The obvious pro being you can almost certainly get started there. The con being they are not a dumping ground to give you a shot and contribute to your success before you move on elsewhere.
I don't know why they talk about their training being worth 30 grand. I also have never heard of them coming after anyone for this. Their real ace is holding back 25% for 18 months.
That's brilliant. If you are actually making money, you are not going to want to walk away from that. No need for messy lawsuits. At the same time if you stick around you can legitimately get paid out 80%. This is way better than anywhere else I've heard of.
Lastly, I am guy who got his first trading job at Tower Hill. I get nothing for saying they look good or bad. I just remember what it was like browsing these forums trying to get realistic information and wanted to try and help someone in that situation out.
To some extent I think the specifics of a firm are less important than something new traders might be missing, which is not such a pleasant piece of news. Trading is super hard, and there is no short cut. Much more than ticket cost or percentage split or software you need to be ready to work for a very long time with little to zero or quite possibly negative income before -- maybe -- finding success.
Tower Hill pretty much does the old school prop firm recuitment scheme. Hire a bunch of guys, know that 90% or more will burn out, and a handful at best will remain and find success.
Be realistic going in about the odds and how hard you're going to have to work to be in that upper percentile.
Trading is really hard. I wonder if the people complaining about starting with "only" 1-5 shares are already successful traders, or people who want to be handed a way to make a ton of money right away.
I have been through starting at that size and slowly getting moved up as I made progress. Honestly every time I did well on the week I'd go ask for more size and they'd give it to me. Then I'd go have my worst week, at larger size, because I had not worked out how to be truly consistently profitable yet.
It is so hard to accept at the time but they are totally right. There is no need for serious size until you've shown them consistent profit. Not a few days, not a week. In retrospect, I clearly got moved up too quickly, which led to a larger negative PnL.
Guess what, that's real money. You have to make it ALL back and get to 0 before you get positive and then get paid a %.
That's trading.
The good news is -- it actually works. There is no guarantee. But once you go from losing at 20, 80 shares to making money with 400 - 500 shares -- and you're truly consistently profitable -- you made it. (And they are much more willing to move you up much more quickly after that.)
I lost money for 15 months -- thankfully at very small size. I took me about 2 months to make all of it back on larger size. Since then I've been profitable 8 of the last 9 months, and I make more every single month -- with the exception of December, which is notoriously slow.
Am I rolling in cash yet?
Hell no, but I actually make a living trading and feel like I'm just getting started. The upside is outrageous.
The bar to entry is quite low. There are pros and cons to that. The obvious pro being you can almost certainly get started there. The con being they are not a dumping ground to give you a shot and contribute to your success before you move on elsewhere.
I don't know why they talk about their training being worth 30 grand. I also have never heard of them coming after anyone for this. Their real ace is holding back 25% for 18 months.
That's brilliant. If you are actually making money, you are not going to want to walk away from that. No need for messy lawsuits. At the same time if you stick around you can legitimately get paid out 80%. This is way better than anywhere else I've heard of.
Lastly, I am guy who got his first trading job at Tower Hill. I get nothing for saying they look good or bad. I just remember what it was like browsing these forums trying to get realistic information and wanted to try and help someone in that situation out.
To some extent I think the specifics of a firm are less important than something new traders might be missing, which is not such a pleasant piece of news. Trading is super hard, and there is no short cut. Much more than ticket cost or percentage split or software you need to be ready to work for a very long time with little to zero or quite possibly negative income before -- maybe -- finding success.
Tower Hill pretty much does the old school prop firm recuitment scheme. Hire a bunch of guys, know that 90% or more will burn out, and a handful at best will remain and find success.
Be realistic going in about the odds and how hard you're going to have to work to be in that upper percentile.
And why is there trading floor empty? Don't answer that. Best deal around? Come on pal, there are firms in Chicago paying guys 500k plus with 60k to 75k in base pay while you are training, not even placing trades, with full benefits and a chance at becoming a partner if you do well. No, that is not the norm of course. It's the exception. I'm just comparing what "making it" at Tower Hill looks like compared to "making it" at a better firm. The two are not the same. And the deferred hold back is not unique to Tower Hill. Every firm in Chicago does that and yes guys walk away from that. A good buddy of mine walked away with 500k in deferment to go to a smaller firm with more upside. He regretted it. But it was because of the circumstance of the new firm.
Sure. Those firms that are paying 500k etc, would they have hired a guy like me with no proven track record?
I was pretty clear that it's extremely difficult with no guarantee of pay -- ever. So yeah, "it's the exception." In that they will actually hire you.
I would have loved reading my post before I started there. I thought I'd know one way or another if I'd be able to make money there in 3 months. My timeframe was totally unrealistic. It takes ages to figure out how to consistently take any amount of money out of the stock market.
If you know a firm that tells you how to do it quicker and pays you for it, honestly, that's great. Name names and help people go get hired there.
I was pretty clear that it's extremely difficult with no guarantee of pay -- ever. So yeah, "it's the exception." In that they will actually hire you.
I would have loved reading my post before I started there. I thought I'd know one way or another if I'd be able to make money there in 3 months. My timeframe was totally unrealistic. It takes ages to figure out how to consistently take any amount of money out of the stock market.
If you know a firm that tells you how to do it quicker and pays you for it, honestly, that's great. Name names and help people go get hired there.