Torture?

Madison · Mar 3, 2003

Quote from hapaboy:

You have got to be kidding. Tell me for one minute that if you had the opportunity to save the life of one of your family members by torturing this piece of human excrement who has already murdered thousands that you wouldn't do so.

that's a different question, isn't it? individually, if this guy did what he is accused of doing, we would probably all be fighting to be first in line to wield the pliers.

however the thread does not center on individual action, but on sanctioning selective unconstitutional and extrajudicial treatment by the state.

how does that differ from the behavior cited as barbarity worthy of 'regime change' by the chickenhawks and armchair bombardiers?

if the state should make due process, Fifth and Eighth Amendment, and bill of attainder exceptions for a particularly bad guy, then for whom should it not make an exception? how bad is 'bad enough' to suspend the Constitution? and who decides that?

OPTIONAL777 · Mar 3, 2003

Quote from Madison:

that's a different question, isn't it? individually, if this guy did what he is accused of doing, we would probably all be fighting to be first in line to wield the pliers.

however the thread does not center on individual action, but on sanctioning selective unconstitutional and extrajudicial treatment by the state.

how does that differ from the behavior cited as barbarity worthy of 'regime change' by the chickenhawks and armchair bombardiers?

if the state should make due process, Fifth and Eighth Amendment, and bill of attainder exceptions for a particularly bad guy, then for whom should it not make an exception? how bad is 'bad enough' to suspend the Constitution? and who decides that?

You bring up interesting points.

Do these "rules" and should the "rules of due process, Fifth and Eighth Amendment" apply equally to non citizens of the USA and those who are guilty of "war" crimes and terrorist acts against the US government who have not earned the right of the protection that our constitution provideS its citizens?

Do we really believe the founding fathers wanted to extend the rights of the constitution to people of foreign lands, visitors in our country? What about enemies of our country from other countries? Fact is, that the laws and rights of the constitution for many years did not even extend to minorities or women who were born in this country.

Shouldn't law abiding citizens of this country have preferential rights over others?

Babak · Mar 3, 2003

This loser actually lived in the US in the 70s and got his engineering degree there. He is well familiar with the 'vices' of our Western culture; known to be a womanizer and a boozer.

So I think the best way may be to buy him a lapdance and tequila shooters at the neighbourhood nudie bar. If that doesn't work....borrow a page from Saddam's playbook.

metooxx · Mar 3, 2003

No ...

max401 · Mar 3, 2003

Quote from Madison:

if the state should make due process, Fifth and Eighth Amendment, and bill of attainder exceptions for a particularly bad guy, then for whom should it not make an exception? how bad is 'bad enough' to suspend the Constitution? and who decides that?

Those items don't apply for an offshore interrogation. The worry is that this individual has information that could be used to stop the deaths of thousands in a possible near future terrorist action. Less than legal methods should be employed and allowed with impunity for the greater good for all.

What if your children were to be among those caught in the terrorist's target?

abra trader · Mar 3, 2003

trader556 says--

"GW, cut your losses sort, it's bad trade, take your stops and get out of this mess. Bring our people back. Turkey refused, take that 40-50 billion and help our bankrupt states. Obey the law!

THIS IS THE GREATEST NATION on the FACE OF THIS EARTH!--- do not destroy it any more-- "

Bush has been one of the best, most couragious presidents in history. You should be grateful we have him.

Instead, you use cheap rhetoric, and I wish you said it to my face so I could slap you around.

trader556 · Mar 3, 2003

Quote from abra trader:

trader556 says--

"GW, cut your losses sort, it's bad trade, take your stops and get out of this mess. Bring our people back. Turkey refused, take that 40-50 billion and help our bankrupt states. Obey the law!

THIS IS THE GREATEST NATION on the FACE OF THIS EARTH!--- do not destroy it any more-- "

Bush has been one of the best, most couragious presidents in history. You should be grateful we have him.

Instead, you use cheap rhetoric, and I wish you said it to my face so I could slap you around.

vinny the sam contrary strikes back

Anytime dude, send me your address and I'll show up. Come out if you dare.

read this you pinehead http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=212859#post212859
then lets talk about who is running this greatest nation of them all :mad:

hapaboy · Mar 3, 2003

Quote from Madison:

that's a different question, isn't it? individually, if this guy did what he is accused of doing, we would probably all be fighting to be first in line to wield the pliers.

however the thread does not center on individual action, but on sanctioning selective unconstitutional and extrajudicial treatment by the state.

how does that differ from the behavior cited as barbarity worthy of 'regime change' by the chickenhawks and armchair bombardiers?

if the state should make due process, Fifth and Eighth Amendment, and bill of attainder exceptions for a particularly bad guy, then for whom should it not make an exception? how bad is 'bad enough' to suspend the Constitution? and who decides that?

Why is this a "different question"? Because you or a member of your family hasn't been a victim YET of terrorism? What about your fellow Americans who have been victims?

I don't understand your argument about suspending the Constitution as this is a foreign national we're talking about, a terrorist for chrissakes.

You need to answer your own question: How bad is bad enough for you and the other armchair dreamers to realize that sometimes you have to fight fire with fire?

Madison, if the murder of thousands of your own countrymen and the threat of further attacks on them and yours is not enough to convince you, I don't know what will.

It deeply saddens me that so many Americans would rather extend roses to our enemies and risk further casualties among fellow citizens than take the necessary action to eradicate the threat.

Thank God our President doesn't see it that way.

max401 · Mar 3, 2003

We need to suspend all PC type of individual rights. All middle easterners should be given extra scrutiny at all airport security checkpoints, not just passenger gate entrances. (I would have debated against this a year ago.)

Al-Quaeda is on a rampage and out for US blood. They have to be stopped.

Terrorists aim at Pearl Harbor By Bill Gertz

THE WASHINGTON TIMES 03-03-03

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20030303-104.htm

Intelligence reports about the terrorist threat to the Hawaiian harbor bombed by the Japanese in World War II were sent to senior U.S. officials in the past two weeks and coincided with reports of the planning of a major attack by Osama bin Laden's terrorist group.

Officials said the reports were one of the reasons that led to the recent heightened security threat alert. The alert status has since been lowered. According to officials familiar with the reports, al Qaeda is planning an attack on Pearl Harbor because of its symbolic value and because its military facilities are open from the air.

The attacks would be carried out by hijacked airliners from nearby Honolulu International Airport that would be flown into submarines or ships docked at Pearl Harbor in suicide missions, said officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

MondoTrader · Mar 3, 2003

I think they are using "smart" torture instead of the old fashioned kind, which I am in favor of since these people don't really have any rights as ordinary criminals or POW's. Sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, drugs, etc. are legit. I would draw the line at the old fashioned torture simply so that we don't sink to their level and have it come back on us in some U.N. hearing in the future. The anti-american propaganda machine is in full swing and we don't need to give them ammunition.