Topsteptrader

[londonkid]

Then why do you claim that the "decent traders" with smaller accounts will "scale up" with that account, if you agree "the larger account you start with the greater chances of success?" That is pure doublespeak.

No it's not doublespreak Joe there is something wrong with your neurons. The above 2 ideas are not contradicting each other at all. Decent traders will adapt and size to whatever max loss/metrics they are given to work with. They will start with lower size and it will take longer to build up the account.

As Shiko pointed out, many traders took multiple combines to eventually pass and trade the live account.

That's not a smart thing to do imo. The reason being you are ultimately wasting your time/money. For example if a trader lacked trading skill but was desperate to pass a combine at all costs he could take multiple combines and take 1 trade per day. Each combine would therefore be measured over only 10 trades. If he took enough combines then with variance in results he should be able to get through. The problem would then be when he came to the live account it is very unlikely he would be able to sustain himself. This is because he relied on variance to pass the combine and not a solid edge. He is wasting time/money because he is not spending time developing an edge and the time he is using at TST could have been used to earn money.

Your opinion is "against the herd" however I'll bet if you saw all the live accounts of the backer, the ones who are taking checks are the accounts with the most equity.

This is pure nonsense Joe. To take a cheque you need to have equity in the account. So to say that the ones taking cheques are the ones with the most equity makes no sense. It's a bit like saying I bet you rich people withdraw more money from their bank accounts than poor people.

What you need to do Joe is spend time working on an edge and stop obsessing over the rules which will get you nowhere. The TST rules are what they are, you cannot change them. Your main issue is lack of edge. The sooner you work on that the faster you can move forward to being profitable with TST or otherwise. Somehow I doubt you will do that though, you will choose to spend time going over the rules, musing over how they are 'wrong' and how if you had more equity you would have a better chance lol.

You carry on though, everyone is an expert in this business, only a tiny minority are profitable.

 

[ScalperJoe]

Of course the odds are that you will be sent back to the combine. Surviving in the live account is not easy, most will fail. I agree it's better to take a larger combine if you are confident you can pass it, that's why I took the largest combine and passed it first time.

Once again, you're resorting to playing "attack the messenger." Whether I take and pass or fail 100 combines is not the subject of discussion. We're talking about TWO issues here, "edge" and "equity."

The amount of arrogance in your posts is astounding, lol.

I clearly said that to define whether or not one is going to take a check will depend on the average P&L per day of the combine, multiplied by 10, scaled down to half. That is the estimated value of the cushion on day 11. The higher the number of that EQUITY VALUE, the higher odds of taking a check. Of course this also requires a trader to have an "edge" in their game plan, and I have never denied that.

I haven't twisted anything. You made a prior claim that "no amount of money management will give you an edge" and then you attempt to argue about risk parameters, lol.

The example of the guy who made $18/day in the combine has an "edge" for the purposes of passing the combine only. You are free to claim he has "no edge" however Top Step still features those who pass the combine on the Squawk. So on one hand you gloat about their "150 funded traders" and now you're claiming a guy who passes has "no edge", hilarious!

You passed the 150k combine on the first attempt, and that is obviously adding to your Texas-sized ego. Berating others who have differences of opinion other than your own only serves your own arrogance.

At least we agree that it's better to take a larger combine once a person thinks he can pass it. You can continue boasting about having an "edge" but at the end of the day, it will require equity to utilize the scale up plan. Top Step is a viable opportunity that allows a trader to build up that equity after successful completion of the combine.

 

[londonkid]

Once again, you're resorting to playing "attack the messenger." Whether I take and pass or fail 100 combines is not the subject of discussion. We're talking about TWO issues here, "edge" and "equity."

The amount of arrogance in your posts is astounding, lol.

I clearly said that to define whether or not one is going to take a check will depend on the average P&L per day of the combine, multiplied by 10, scaled down to half. That is the estimated value of the cushion on day 11. The higher the number of that EQUITY VALUE, the higher odds of taking a check. Of course this also requires a trader to have an "edge" in their game plan, and I have never denied that.

I haven't twisted anything. You made a prior claim that "no amount of money management will give you an edge" and then you attempt to argue about risk parameters, lol.

The example of the guy who made $18/day in the combine has an "edge" for the purposes of passing the combine only. You are free to claim he has "no edge" however Top Step still features those who pass the combine on the Squawk. So on one hand you gloat about their "150 funded traders" and now you're claiming a guy who passes has "no edge", hilarious!

You passed the 150k combine on the first attempt, and that is obviously adding to your Texas-sized ego. Berating others who have differences of opinion other than your own only serves your own arrogance.

At least we agree that it's better to take a larger combine once a person thinks he can pass it. You can continue boasting about having an "edge" but at the end of the day, it will require equity to utilize the scale up plan. Top Step is a viable opportunity that allows a trader to build up that equity after successful completion of the combine.

Joe you are back pedalling. What is the main reason people fail to take a cheque at TST?

 

[smallStops]

I don't really understand what you are argueing about.
You both passed the Combine ( joe and londonkid is doing the ltp), and now are both argueing if it is worth
signing the contract, right? or I am mistaken?

 

[smallStops]

I myself only see advantages in giving a go at the Combine.
Trying it ( 97$ for the start one) is absolutely not expensive nor in money , nor time
( one can trade a combine 30mns daily for 10 days). 100$/day for 10 days , on average, gives you a pass.

 

[londonkid]

I don't really understand what you are argueing about.
You both passed the Combine ( joe and londonkid is doing the ltp), and now are both argueing if it is worth
signing the contract, right? or I am mistaken?

I dont think Joe has passed a combine. The main disagreement here is that Joe thinks losing traders need more money to succeed and I say more money isnt their main problem. Their main problem is lack of a decent edge. Of course he will try and wriggle but thats the crux of it.

 

[volente_00]

Joe you are back pedalling. What is the main reason people fail to take a cheque at TST?

A lot has to do with the structure of the program. Answer this simple question. Why would you let someone who passed the 10k combine trade a 4 lot with 10k cushion yet allow the 150k combine passer to trade a 20 lot with the same 10k cushion in live trading ?
That makes absolutely zero sense from a backers risk perspective and if your interest is truly in backing traders to produce for you. The only incentive is it tricks the combiner into paying TST $375 instead of $95 because the only way you have a chance to make any decent money is to trader larger size with this setup. So what ends up happening to most is they either trade conservative and grind and grind and get burned out after a year of making peanuts in their live account or they try scaling up with the suicidal $500 per car noose they are given and end up blowing up and quitting or sent back to the combine as the realize the truth of the matter over time.

 

[londonkid]

A lot has to do with the structure of the program. Answer this simple question. Why would you let someone who passed the 10k combine trade a 4 lot with 10k cushion yet allow the 150k combine passer to trade a 20 lot with the same 10k cushion in live trading ?

Because that person has proven they can manage their risk and build up to a 10k cushion, therefore they have a 4 lot limit when they reach a 10k cushion. The limits are higher for larger combines. It's totally down to the trader how he manages the risk of each position and just because the limits are there doesn't mean they have to be used. The larger combines allow the trader a faster route to the 10k cushion, they cost more to enter as their is more risk to TST.

For someone trading with $500 per trade risk day 1 of funded on the $150k combine you would have to lose 9 straight trades in a row to hit your 3% loss limit. You would have to trade very badly to go over your loss limit risking $500 per trade. That said none of this is easy and and they are looking for top performers.

 

[shiko2000]

It is more complex than that. BTW, edge doe snot work all the time.
In my case I would say a lack of luck especially in my first attempt involved.
The irony, the moment I lost the funding I went on 13 days wining streak which would drive me into Sr. Trader status. Go figure. But I frankly tired of beans.
Working on ES. Looking for edge there.
BTW, having 10 trading days to make it is a very high fence. It is a very big obstacle to jump over. Everybody needs a bit of luck to do so and yes edge.

Shiko, I do agree that the larger account you start with the greater your chances of success. As you say it's obvious. Only on ET could this discussion actually happen.

Personally I believe the main reason traders fail to be successful is that they do not have a decent edge. It is not because they don't have enough capital. That's my opinion and I am very comfortable having opinions against the herd, that after all is how you make money in this business.

The majority of people who fail are not even scratch traders (where you get a 10 day combine refund). Instead of a 3% max draw if you gave them a 30% max draw they would still lose.

Shiko, I do agree that the larger account you start with the greater your chances of success. As you say it's obvious. Only on ET could this discussion actually happen.

Personally I believe the main reason traders fail to be successful is that they do not have a decent edge. It is not because they don't have enough capital. That's my opinion and I am very comfortable having opinions against the herd, that after all is how you make money in this business.

The majority of people who fail are not even scratch traders (where you get a 10 day combine refund). Instead of a 3% max draw if you gave them a 30% max draw they would still lose.

 

[shiko2000]

I agree. To pass combine edge is certainly required and discipline too. The most important factor is psychology though.

londonkid understands it otherwise he would not have traded the 150k combine. For whatever reason, he is surprised by the discussion, yet remains under the impression that "piker" accounts (those who do not build enough equity on Days 1-10) can still utilize the scale up plan because of the "main reason" being their "decent edge." I'm saying that is a faulty assumption and simply incorrect, so there's a difference of opinion.

Those who passed the strict parameters of any of the combines have an "edge" or they wouldn't have passed the combine in the first place!

Nobody knows the exact stats, except for the trader, TopStep and the backer. But you don't even have to ask Mike about the live accounts, and you cannot expect him to reveal information that the backer claims is private. You simply have to review the combine stats and generate your own conclusions.

For example, if you get the emails from Top Step, then you can review the combine stats of the last six funded traders of the past week or so. Their average daily P&L is the key metric. The gains are quite consistent, providing for decent stats, usually in the $200 to $400 average per day. One had only an $18/day average.

The point is the guy with an $18/day average, even though he might have an "edge" to generate the profits, only has 10 days build the equity in the live account, which then becomes his maximum allowable draw. If risk is scaled down to half, then $9 x 10 days is $90 of equity on day 11. Does this provide high odds of taking a check, EVEN if the main reason is his "edge"?

You can start with the smaller combines, and even if you pass, the odds are you will be sent BACK to the combine. So you might as well trade in simulator, and then when you've found your "edge" start with the 50k and see if the equity is enough on Day 11 to start scaling up. If not, then trade the 100k/150k combine, as that will provide the highest odds of capitalizing on the scale up plan, NOT because of the main reason being your "edge" but due to the fact you will have built more EQUITY.