Topsteptrader

[ScalperJoe]

My opinion is the mythical backer is the same person who set up 2 different llc's from the start. Maybe londonkid will tell us if Tst cuts his check or ptp does.

It makes solid business sense to earn revenues from the combines, and from the funded traders who manage to build enough equity to take a check, plus from the ancillary revenues through education. It's a business, not a charity, so even if the llc's have the same owners, good for them.

Yes, hopefully londonkid takes a check, even if he's somewhat delusional regarding the concept of equity.

 

[volente_00]

Yes, hence the name "continuous combine." But remember, you only get ten days in the live account to prove yourself with the cushion, which then becomes your equity. So to maximize the effectiveness of the continuous combine, it's better to still only trade for ten days. The advantage is you can cherry pick the optimal days, unlike the standard combine, where you are restricted by one calendar month.

From prior posts, traders have stated that the live trader prep has the same risk parameters, except the profit target is 50% of the combine, and must be reached within 60 days.

Live accounts have the same parameters of the combine, PLUS the two added rules: weekly stop out limit (which reduces the daily limit if you trade each day), AND the scale up rules.

So if one passed the 150k combine then to pass ltp they have to make $4500?

Do that and you go live with just a one lot ?

And your whole account is based off of your 10 day performance with that 1 lot ?

What are the scale up rules ?

 

[londonkid]

see the doomongers are back in town. On a positive note Michael Patak CEO of Topstep is on the Top Step Squawk radio tomorrow at 10am Chicago time for 1 hour (see tomorrow's squawk radio schedule attached). The link to listen is on the right hand side of the topstep website and you can sign in as a guest and listen for FREE. I believe Michael as a 1 hour slot every week where he updates everyone on the latest TST news and you can ask any question you like. John Hoagland does a day trading class every day at 11am Chicago time again all FREE, yesterday he was talking about psychology, boy some of the people on this thread could use that.

Good Luck

I

 

[shiko2000]

londonkid, here's an older post by Maverick74, almost 5 years ago now, but worthy of reading (especially the last few paragraphs).

"Let me re-phrase what I'm trying to say. A trader with 10k in capital has close to zero chance of ever making it. I know that, Don Bright knows that, Bob Bright knows that and everyone on the street knows that. This is what I was trying to get at when questioning Don about taking in 10k accounts, or youngsters as he likes to call them.

Not to forget is stress levels and psychological reserves that also can be depleted in day trading.

Look, when I started at Worldco back in 2000, we had arguably one of the best markets in history to trade. The only way we could produce good traders was to let them go anywhere from 25k to 100k deep in the red in their accounts. Even the guys that came in with capital, usually 10k to 20k, we let them go 50k into firm money. The good ones dug their way out and did well. The bad ones we cut. Net net they never really lost that much money on them as it was mostly commissions.

I know I'm not suppose to say this but the biggest fraud of the prop firm business is not commissions, or leverage, or whether or not you need a series 7, it's the fact that firms sells the dream of success to young guys that don't know any better. Well I do know better. I know it not because I'm a smart ass trying to pick a fight with Don, this really has little to do with Don in particular, it has to do with the fact that I've been in this business for 10 years and have been around over 1000 traders who have gone through the system. I know the numbers because I've seen the numbers.

There is a direct correlation between the amount of capital you have to trade and your odds of success. Not leverage, CAPITAL! These numbers are indisputable. I know them, I've seen them.

At the end of the day, after 10 years, I realized the biggest edge in this business is not computers, not charts, not leverage, but equity. Pure old fashioned good american equity. If anyone tries to tell you otherwise, they are probably trying to sell you something."

The actual post is from this closed thread:

http://www.elitetrader.com/et/index...-new-payout-model.204053/page-14#post-2915051

Haha, big secret. Obviously it is about equity. Guys with small account tend to even devise strategies matching as they think risk of their account. Small stops, small daily loss limit and all. But frankly, it is BS. Day trading is for those with deep pockets. To be frank trading from higher time frame and staying sometimes in trades for few days and having larger stops might give better chances.
Trader with small equity is akin polar bear with little blubber left in the dead of winter. Unless he gets very lucky with regular seals or better dead whale he is not going to make it.

 

[londonkid]

this sort of debate can only happen on ET. Naturally I am very comfortable having a different opinion to the herd, that's how you make money after all. lol.

Of course you have a better chance of success if you start with more equity, that's a given. The point I made is that it doesn't matter what size account you start with if you are a losing trader. i.e. you have no edge, no discipline no understanding of the market you trade bound up with poor psychology. I am sure Mav appreciates the quotations. He also stated people would come into his shop with $100k and blow the whole lot because they didn't have a clue what they are doing.

The primary drivers of a new trader failing are lack of edge/discipline not account size. i stand by that. A losing trader will still blow through 100k, it will just take them a little longer. I know some turd will now say, yes but if you had more money then they would stand a greater chance. It's futile, the problem is not being able to trade.

 

[ScalperJoe]

this sort of debate can only happen on ET. Naturally I am very comfortable having a different opinion to the herd, that's how you make money after all. lol.

Of course you have a better chance of success if you start with more equity, that's a given. The point I made is that it doesn't matter what size account you start with if you are a losing trader. i.e. you have no edge, no discipline no understanding of the market you trade bound up with poor psychology. .

Finally, you are willing to admit that one has a "better chance of success if you start with more equity."

The second part of your post is nonsensical! If someone passes the 100k or 150k combine and builds and adequate cushion, then by logic and default, they are NOT "losing traders" and thus have higher odds of taking a check/success.

The whole point of the entire combine is to build that discipline. Once that's built, then the odds improve. However, REGARDLESS of how many times you pass a smaller combine, 10k, 30k, your odds remain very low that you will monetize the scale up plan, because of the lack of equity, even if you're a "decent trader" by combine standards.

 

[ScalperJoe]

So if one passed the 150k combine then to pass ltp they have to make $4500?

Do that and you go live with just a one lot ?

And your whole account is based off of your 10 day performance with that 1 lot ?

What are the scale up rules ?

Yes, from what others have posted, it's 50% of the profit required in the combine.

When you go live, you can trade up to three lots if you passed the 150k combine, as per the scale up rules.

Your account performance on the live account is determined by how much equity you build on days 1-10. The more equity, the better odds of continuation. Your equity value becomes your maximum allowable draw on days 11 and beyond, since you cannot go below the "zero" balance.

The scale up rules are very transparent:

https://topsteptrader.desk.com/customer/portal/articles/1950862-funded-trader-scaling-plan

 

[ScalperJoe]

Haha, big secret. Obviously it is about equity. Guys with small account tend to even devise strategies matching as they think risk of their account. Small stops, small daily loss limit and all. But frankly, it is BS. Day trading is for those with deep pockets. To be frank trading from higher time frame and staying sometimes in trades for few days and having larger stops might give better chances.
Trader with small equity is akin polar bear with little blubber left in the dead of winter. Unless he gets very lucky with regular seals or better dead whale he is not going to make it.

Yes shiko, you obviously understand it, since you went through it, and thus you have the personal experience of it. Unfortunately, many traders have trouble accepting the correlation between equity and success.

I'm not saying that a guy who takes the 100k/150k WILL succeed. Those who pass the combine and build equity can still "blow up" just as a hedge fund with $100 million in AUM can "blow up" their investors' funds.

Like I said, it's not about absolutes, it's about probabilities. Top Step provides a model where the 100k/150k combine traders who build enough equity on Days 1-10 have a higher probability of taking a check.

They offer the sim account for all levels, so that's a good start, but eventually one will have to work their way up to the bigger combines.

 

[londonkid]

Finally, you are willing to admit that one has a "better chance of success if you start with more equity."

lol Joe. Only on a trading forum can someone spend actual time arguing that you have a better chance of success if you have more money to begin with.

The second part of your post is nonsensical! If someone passes the 100k or 150k combine and builds and adequate cushion, then by logic and default, they are NOT "losing traders" and thus have higher odds of taking a check/success.

The whole point of the entire combine is to build that discipline. Once that's built, then the odds improve. However, REGARDLESS of how many times you pass a smaller combine, 10k, 30k, your odds remain very low that you will monetize the scale up plan, because of the lack of equity, even if you're a "decent trader" by combine standards.

this is getting really tiresome now, congratulations for causing many people to not read about TST on this thread. Showing you can be disciplined in the combine is one point of the combine not the whole point as you stated.

the odds remain low of succeeding because most traders are trading with no edge (or not a strong enough edge) and poor discipline. It is not the lack of equity in the majority of cases.

here is the bind with developing discipline. If you have little or no edge it is much harder to develop as you are not going to be rewarded in a consistent fashion. Without these rewards (profits) you are much more likely to have a discipline breakdown.

Nearly all of us have been there at some point, you set out your rules but you keep losing. You get riled and do something that breaks your rules, you might get away with it once or twice but eventually you take a big loss. You then go on to blame the the failure on a lack of discipline. The actual truth of the matter is that you were trading without an edge and whilst lack of discipline eventually took your account down it was you method (edge) that was the root cause.

Once you have a solid edge and you are trading it, discipline is easier to keep. If your edge it that good you can even get away with a couple of lapses here and there as long as you don't do anything really dumb. If you have little or no edge then one bad lapse of discipline can be enough to wreck your day/week.

I write the above to illustrate that for most people struggling to make it in this business that they should be focusing on edge (method). Yes you need discipline but once you have an edge you will find this easier to develop. Throwing more money at the problem will not help either.

GL

 

[ScalperJoe]

here is the bind with developing discipline. If you have little or no edge it is much harder to develop as you are not going to be rewarded in a consistent fashion. Without these rewards (profits) you are much more likely to have a discipline breakdown.

Once you have a solid edge and you are trading it, discipline is easier to keep. If your edge it that good you can even get away with a couple of lapses here and there as long as you don't do anything really dumb. If you have little or no edge then one bad lapse of discipline can be enough to wreck your day/week.

I write the above to illustrate that for most people struggling to make it in this business that they should be focusing on edge (method). Yes you need discipline but once you have an edge you will find this easier to develop. Throwing more money at the problem will not help either.

GL

Actually, it's only on ET where traders use the term "edge" as if it's some type of magical or mystical attribute, lol!

Having an "edge" is simply the ability to identify a trade with a higher probability of outcome where the expected return is justified by the risk. Usually, this occurs by being in synch with the market in terms of price action. Discipline comes by limiting trades to those which provide you with this "edge" while managing risk to prevent the losses from swelling.

You can have all the discipline and edge in the world, but without enough equity the rewards (profits) will seem elusive.

So you can keep promoting all of the "funded traders" who obviously have an "edge" and have learned the "discipline" to pass a combine by trading within strict parameters, but WITHOUT ADEQUATE EQUITY on DAY 11, those traders have very low odds of making any money.

If you aren't able to accept that basic concept, then there really isn't any point of discussing this further. Just build your $4,500 cushion after passing the LTP, and you'll have a greater probability of taking a check than someone who passed a 30k combine and LTP, EVEN if that person had an "edge" to find profitable trades.