Topsteptrader

[londonkid]

Sure we do, sure we do. Today it was only 2.5 hours, so you might be typing faster?

maybe I not only type faster but maybe I also think faster and more clearly.

But you are spending this much time on this topic over the WEEKEND.

lolol. firstly how anyone in this world chooses to spend their time is nothing to do with you (thank god!). maybe I work tue/wed/thur and the rest of the time is mine, maybe I am chillaxing and doing this in the background. maybe I secretly work for topstep and I this is all propganda. whatever dude its whatever you want it to be.

They came here advertising their services, basicly a job offer for any ET posters. Wouldn't you do due diligence of a company before you get hired by them? That is just plain common sense. So looking into their practices and misleading info are just the first step for anyone who is seriously thinking about working for them.

hahah. you are assuming I wouldn't do any due dilligence and that what you are doing is due dilligence lol. what misleading info have they posted?

Homework assignment: If you care to explain why a losing trade duration vs. winning trade duration ratio is an important marker (as it was for TST for 2+ years), I am listening... And if it was so important that you could fail the Combine because of that marker, how come they don't have it anymore?

goodness me. I am not TST i dont know why they changed their own rules. Why waste your time on it though, its not something you can influence.

 

[londonkid]

Didn't you say earlier you don't know how their business really operates (you aren't an insider), so how can you be so sure?

dude. nobody knows how their business operates apart from them. You can continue to believe that they hold just the intraday margins of a piker broker as capital.

Not to mention all their rules prove that they DO only put up the intraday margins, so even logic is not behind your statement.

the circus is in town dude. Their rules PROVE they only put up intraday margins, yes of course they do. hahahahah it proves it, it's logic. wtf???

they can't back traders with much longer holding periods. (although I think they do exceptions)
But as a general rule, they mostly use intraday margins, period. It cuts down on the required capital and risk, so makes sense....

absolute tosh. you clearly have never worked for a prop firm.

The accusing them not using real money argument hasn't been brought up for ages, so you are arguing a moot point again.

yes because if something hasnt been brought up for ages that means it's of no relevance. lol.

I gave them plenty of good advices through the years, some of them they actually followed. Hey, I even told them how to make way more money by.....

of course you have Pekelo. Are we talking the real world or Pekelo make believe world? I can picture it now the TST management sitting in a room in chicago and someone saying 'hey Michael, this Pekelo guy on ET has some good suggestions I think you should implement them.' Michael responds 'yeah the guy accuses our company of only holding piker broker margins, but some of his suggestions are great'. cmon this is embarrassing.

well, you just have to read my old posts....

no thanks I will decline. I would prefer to be waterboarded with bieber playing on repeat.

 

[londonkid]

i located the weekly loss limit in their glossary.

http://help.topsteptrader.com/knowledgebase/articles/184263-weekly-loss-limit

the weekly loss limit is 2% for a $150k account. essentially repeat your performance for the combine in days 1 -10 funded and you will be fine.

 

[ScalperJoe]

again lets take an example 150k 10 day combine. 15 contracts max position.

trade risk is 0.5%, 20 ticks on a $12.50 contract 3 lot. capiche. if scaling/averaging/martingaling was permitted and only EOD daily loss considered (not intraday) then what is to stop the trader using the other 12 lots of firepower to try and make the trade good'. There is room to double down, triple down, quadruple down, quintuple down (is that a word lol). It would be abused and TST dont want that it's good for nobody in this process.

That trade risk to reward sounds reasonable on a 150k combine. It's a $750 max draw, well within the daily max draw. For that risk/reward to work, you'd need several days of more than 20+ ticks to make up for the draw to meet the profit target.

We've already discussed the risk/rewards of using max lot size, it's not something you can do in the live account, only to trade out of a jam in the combine.

 

[ScalperJoe]

the idea that they are only putting up the intraday margin of $500 per contract is wrong, they have substantial capital and are allocating risk to each trader. I wish people would stop comparing what TST is doing to what would happen if you went to amp with $3000 and said juice me up, it's not the same at all for many reasons.

Do this, call up a futures firm and ask them this direct question:

"How much daytrade margin do I have to put up to trade 3 lots of crude AND have enough cushion for a $1500 total drawdown?"

Since you mentioned AMP, the actual amount to trade in the above example is $4,500. $1,000 is per lot of crude, times three lots, plus the $1,500 for the allowable draw.

But don't take my word for it, look at the AMP margin schedule here:

http://www.ampfutures.com/margins_req.html

There is "initial margin" and "intraday (or daytrade) margin" for trading crude. Let's say you passed a $30k combine and TST agrees to back you. Now let's say they are opening an account for you with AMP. How much equity is required to trade the "live" funded account?

The answer is the same: $4,500.

It's the intraday margin required PER LOT, PER PRODUCT, multiplied by the maximum number of lots allowable, plus the total allowance for the draw.

The "risk" they are allocating to each trader is for the draw allowance within the first ten days of the live account. Remember, the backer does NOT have risk beyond the 10th day, since you have to build a cushion, and that cannot go below "zero" so in other words the backer will never have to face a margin/liquidation call for their maintenance equity.

You seem to be missing the point that Pekelo, I and others have brought up ad nauseam.

Regarding the "juice me up" comment, I've stated that TST is still the better option vs. opening your own account, especially if you have not traded futures.

It is very easy to "blow up" a few grand in an AMP account. At least with TST, your barrier to entry is low and thus the 'opportunity cost' is beneficial over opening a live account.

 

[ScalperJoe]

my goodness lol. that is a ridiculous extension of what i said. dude, clearly TST say you can take profits out any time, they are removing any barriers to people joining, they want people to join anything they can do to make it attractive they will do that, thats why they say you can withdraw anytime. What I am saying is say you make $3k profit on a $150k account. To then withdraw $2k is piker because you are jeopardising your long term success by not keeping the money in there. Honestly if someone needs to take $2k out in the 1st 10 days to buy food/pay rent that is piker and they really should go and do some unskilled work to build savings.

I'm in agreement here with you, and that is why I said unless you have at LEAST a $3k to $5k cushion built up, the chances of survival in the live account beyond the 10th day are slim. I think even that is a low amount. You had stated a 15k cushion before making withdrawals. My guess is live traders would want to get out at least some cash, perhaps to cover their prior combine fees, but not to cover rent/food, etc. since that would defeat the purpose of building up a live account.

 

[ScalperJoe]

ok you are saying it does state the that daily and weekly stop loss figures are during the live account. I have read the following many times and cannot see it https://topsteptrader.desk.com/customer/portal/topics/787382-funded-trader-info/articles?t=558735

I can see the scale up plan we have been discussing that. Where does it say your weekly loss limit and that you divide it by 5 to get your new daily loss limit. provide a link or screenshot, not just your thoughts which can be subjective.

I can clearly see there is a daily stop loss and trailing max drawdown. (2% & 3% respectively in the 150k combine). As no figure is mentioned it would seem reasonable that it is the very same 2% & 3% figures used in the combine. The way it reads is that the daily/weekly loss limit are the same i.e. 2% max loss per day and if you do that you are also done for the week.

please provide a link/screenshot if you have different figures for daily/weekly/maxtdrawdown.



Catch 22? odds lower? I just dont get why you are highlighting this. Yes the odds are lower to survive the live account if you are required to trade conservatively AND also build up a solid cushion within the first 10 days THAN if you used a less strict set of rules. The odds are LOWER than what, all you are saying in reality is that the odds are low that a trader will succeed but we already know that.

Are you in some way saying that days 1-10 are a catch 22 and that is somehow unfair or that the rules should be changed to make them easier for you? otherwise i dont get your point. It just doesnt work like that. They make the rules and they are designed so only the best skilled traders make it though. They could say ok scalperjoe you can have 30 days instead of 10 days to build up your profit (which is then used as the cushion for next stage of live account). If they did this they would be accepting inferior traders, traders who cannot replicate what they did to pass the combine with the additional pressure of trading live funds. This is the crux of days 1 to 10 and what it is testing. i.e. can you repeat your combine performance or similar with live funds.

to go over this ad nauserum again we use the example of a trader who has just passed a 150k 10 day combine. even giving a huge margin of error by saying all they have to do is achieve half the performance at 3% instead of the 6% they achieved to pass the combine the figures are:

0.5% risk per trade. eg. 3 contracts, 20 tick stop on a $12.50 tick instrument
3% profit (half performance of combine) = $4500 profit
6% profit (same target as combine) = $9000 profit

so the trader has to simply replicate what he did in the combine again with live funds.

Scroll down to "Funded Account" and you'll see the added weekly loss limits, which of course reduces the daily.

https://www.topsteptrader.com/learnmore

You have missed the point regarding the "catch-22" since there are traders who will pass the combine and THEN come to the realization of the extra set of rules in the live account which are NOT present in the combine.

Here again, this has been brought up on numerous prior posts. This is why passing the combine is not very relevant, it's the passing of the first 10 days of the live account which matters.

TST actually provides updates on these traders as they being to achieve profits in the live accounts, which I think is a good market effort, and shows that traders do get through it, even if it's only a handful.

You mentioned traders "cannot replicate what they did to pass the combine" which is quite accurate. One actually has to trade BETTER than they did in the combine, to allow for the extra set of rules (max lot size as per scale up plan, plus weekly loss limits).

 

[ScalperJoe]

0.5% risk per trade. eg. 3 contracts, 20 tick stop on a $12.50 tick instrument
3% profit (half performance of combine) = $4500 profit
6% profit (same target as combine) = $9000 profit

so the trader has to simply replicate what he did in the combine again with live funds.

That example sounds reasonable, however you also have to allocate for the draw! What is the objective on the days where you take profits? Same 20 tick gains on 3 lots? And remember, the daily cannot be $750 if you trade each day, since there is a weekly of $3k, or $600/day, which reduces the stop amounts.

If you're going to provide examples, then show your calculation of what one needs to make on profitable days to account for the losing days, while still maintaining the parameters of the live account.

 

[londonkid]

You have missed the point regarding the "catch-22" since there are traders who will pass the combine and THEN come to the realization of the extra set of rules in the live account which are NOT present in the combine.

Here again, this has been brought up on numerous prior posts. This is why passing the combine is not very relevant, it's the passing of the first 10 days of the live account which matters.

TST actually provides updates on these traders as they being to achieve profits in the live accounts, which I think is a good market effort, and shows that traders do get through it, even if it's only a handful.

You mentioned traders "cannot replicate what they did to pass the combine" which is quite accurate. One actually has to trade BETTER than they did in the combine, to allow for the extra set of rules (max lot size as per scale up plan, plus weekly loss limits).

the passing of the combine is not relevant?- totally disagree with you. That is like saying nothing is relevant apart from making a profit. It is a necessary step and is critical to success.

In my previous post I clearly set out an example how a 150k 10 day combine would be passed shooting for 2:1 RR with a 50% strike rate risking 0.75% per trade on 16 trades.

In days 1 -10 of funded you can cut your risk in half to 0.375% allowing 5 full stop outs before the weekly max loss is hit. If you simply repeat your combine performance you will have a profit of $4500 for day 11 of funded account. So you do not need to trade better than the combine you just cut your risk.

If you only scrape through with a meagre profit (cushion) for day 11+ of funded then there is nothing to stop you proceeding on a 1 lot to build the account up slowly from there with no set profit target/time based restrictions.

The lack of edge and/or inability to follow rules is still the biggest barrier to success for most traders.

GT

 

[ScalperJoe]

the passing of the combine is not relevant?- totally disagree with you. That is like saying nothing is relevant apart from making a profit. It is a necessary step and is critical to success.

In my previous post I clearly set out an example how a 150k 10 day combine would be passed shooting for 2:1 RR with a 50% strike rate risking 0.75% per trade on 16 trades.

In days 1 -10 of funded you can cut your risk in half to 0.375% allowing 5 full stop outs before the weekly max loss is hit. If you simply repeat your combine performance you will have a profit of $4500 for day 11 of funded account. So you do not need to trade better than the combine you just cut your risk.

If you only scrape through with a meagre profit (cushion) for day 11+ of funded then there is nothing to stop you proceeding on a 1 lot to build the account up slowly from there with no set profit target/time based restrictions.

The lack of edge and/or inability to follow rules is still the biggest barrier to success for most traders.

GT

Sure, the passing of the combine is the first and necessary step, but is not relevant in terms of taking a check. Ask any trader who passed the combine if that was their ultimate goal.

Your example of the 16 trades in the 150k combine using those r/r parameters works as long as you don't have four losing trades in a row, or you'd hit the max trailing draw.

As far as days 1-10 in the funded account, if you can maintain those parameters with 3 lots, and build size if needed using the scale up plan, without ever hitting the max draw, then sure, the math works.

It sounds like you have a good handle on how to pass the combine AND build a $4500 profit cushion in the first 10 days of the funded account. So when do you expect to start the 150k combine?