Topsteptrader

[ScalperJoe]

I would NOT saying passing combine is IRREVELANT. The Combine has very strict risk management rules and a short leash. Passing it shows some strict discipline and being able to generate 9K in 10 days.

Perhaps I should have been more specific. It's "IRRELEVANT" only due to the fact that on the bigger combines, the metrics are changed given the additional trader rules of the Jr Trader account:

1. No adding to a loser
2. No adding to a winner until your P&L is up $1k
3. No trading before big news events
4. Weekly loss limit, which lowers the average daily loss limit

You're right about making $9k in 10 days with the very strict management rules and short leash shows good trading discipline, even for a sim account. However, if you did ANY of the above during the combine, it's something you CANNOT do as a Jr Trader, therefore unless you trade the combine the same way you'd trade the Jr Trader account, it's not an "apples to apples" comparison, since you can't trade that way in the Jr Trader account, or it's considered a violation of their rules, which means you get sent BACK to combine. And my guess is most traders are in this to make Sr Trader, not to be "combine churners." Therefore, the only relevant combine is the 30k since the rules are the same, the others are not, and that's why I used the word "IRRELEVANT."

 

[nemesis45]

I use to back guys trader99.

Didn't go too well for you i suppose.

 

[nemesis45]

Perhaps I should have been more specific. It's "IRRELEVANT" only due to the fact that on the bigger combines, the metrics are changed given the additional trader rules of the Jr Trader account:

1. No adding to a loser
2. No adding to a winner until your P&L is up $1k
3. No trading before big news events
4. Weekly loss limit, which lowers the average daily loss limit

You're right about making $9k in 10 days with the very strict management rules and short leash shows good trading discipline, even for a sim account. However, if you did ANY of the above during the combine, it's something you CANNOT do as a Jr Trader, therefore unless you trade the combine the same way you'd trade the Jr Trader account, it's not an "apples to apples" comparison, since you can't trade that way in the Jr Trader account, or it's considered a violation of their rules, which means you get sent BACK to combine. And my guess is most traders are in this to make Sr Trader, not to be "combine churners." Therefore, the only relevant combine is the 30k since the rules are the same, the others are not, and that's why I used the word "IRRELEVANT."

Well, the 30k combine is the most fair agree, but need more than a 500 USD strict loss limit to trade a product like crude. Can trade the snp for sure though for the 30k combine, it's not as volatile.
50k combine isnt bad either. Anyways i wonder why it is arbitrarily named 30k, 50k, 150k etc

 

[trader99]

Well, the 30k combine is the most fair agree, but need more than a 500 USD strict loss limit to trade a product like crude. Can trade the snp for sure though for the 30k combine, it's not as volatile.
50k combine isnt bad either. Anyways i wonder why it is arbitrarily named 30k, 50k, 150k etc

Why do you feel 30K combine is most fair? You are pushing around at most 3 lots. What's the deal with no weekly loss limit? Your max drawdown is still $1500. I don't get it. Why is no weekly loss limit is such a big deal when you are constrainted by $1500 max drawdown.

And it still begs the question once you made $1500 and you reached Sr Status, then what? Does the 30K account can now swing 10 lots? 15 lots?

Not clear.

How hard is to get to $1500 on 3 lots.. Shouldn't be too difficult

 

[nemesis45]

Why do you feel 30K combine is most fair? You are pushing around at most 3 lots. What's the deal with no weekly loss limit? Your max drawdown is still $1500. I don't get it. Why is no weekly loss limit is such a big deal when you are constrainted by $1500 max drawdown.

And it still begs the question once you made $1500 and you reached Sr Status, then what? Does the 30K account can now swing 10 lots? 15 lots?

Not clear.

How hard is to get to $1500 on 3 lots.. Shouldn't be too difficult

Because its a 1500 max drawdown risk to make 1500 USD, for the rest 2k drawdown to make 3k or 3.5k (also drawdown isnt the money they risk on the downside, rather from peak.)

its the best risk/reward simply. but 500USD/ day sadly doesnt cover the risk per lot in oil at least.

In crude or SnP you cannot hit 3 lots for a risk of 500 usd, unless really sure shot trade or such, still very risky, you may hit daily stop limit pretty quickly, best trade only one.

Once you make 1500 usd and become a sr. trader, nothing , you are absolved of the few more rules of a junior trader, but daily/weekly risk limit and max. contracts remains same. to swing more lots you have to make 15k usd in profits net.

The 30k combine IS the fairest deal, in terms of risk/reward targets.

The transaction cost is 5usd/ roundtrip, whish is many times more of what I at least am used to paying - i dont know why most people never get around to discussing this, its quite a significant % of intraday profits - maybe because most people taking the combines are new traders?

gl if you plan on taking the combine.

 

[Pekelo]

Pekelo statement regarding how it is so easy to fund and trade $5000 account of course is wrong. I myself would lose some $20K over the year I was taking first 8 Combines. 95% if no more would lose those $5-10K.

Dude, seriously, you wire the money, the broker credits your account and you can start trading. How complicated is that for you?

Of course you are talking about NEWBIES, but I wasn't. It is called Topsteptrader, not Newbietrader, although I guess they should rename themselves. Originally the whole idea of this business was to discover trading talent and back them with more money. Well, if you already have talent and experience, why do you need the education part?

They started the education side of their business much later when they realized that there is an inherent Catch 22 in their original business plan, namely, truly good traders don't need their kind of backing when they can make it on their own. That simple. Sure education brings in good money, but that wasn't their original mission statement. I bet their education business makes more profits than their backing business...

So you are arguing about how much cheaper for a newbie to start out at TST, but that is not what I am talking about. The point is that they are confusing and misleading people and after 4 years even people here fairly familiar with them can't even agree on the interpretation of their rules...

But I guess you agree with their marketing slogan:

"Don't lose your money quickly to the markets, when you can pay it slowly to TST."

 

[shiko2000]

Pekelo, you do not get my point. You do not have to be a newbie to lose money.
I never traded futures before TST. It is pretty large size right away. even 1 lot is large size for majority. Guys opening $5-10K futures accounts would still blew through those accounts in a matter of weeks or months whether they are newbies or think they know something. Majority lose money in this business even after they are not newbies. 95% are losers. The problem is that everyone thinks he is the next Jess Livermore or Marty Shwartz.
As I stated, I paid about $2000 for some 8-9 Combines before I started making consistent rollovers. In past 7 months I only paid $175. Now, considering my trading results before I became scratch trader I was losing $1500-4000 on each and every Combine before the last Combine of 2013. I would totally lose some 10 times more than I paid to TST. Unles strader is a gambler or have unlimited access to funds
I see no reason why trader who cannot control himslef on sim to start trading live.
Do you think that even more versed trader has psychology in place to control himself well enough to trade so small account with such huge leverage?
I have been watching myfxbook guys blew accounts consistently while being able to control size with mini lots or units and it is futures. You cannot cut lots. No units here.
If trader cannot trade within strict parameters provided by TST I see no reason for them to trade live.
TST allows to learn and practice under supervision, with skin in the game so emotions involved and no risk to equity. There is possible pot of the gold at the end.

Btw, my wife is CA working for large accounting firm. So, she has few "traders" there among clients who consistently lose money year in year out and not a small stakes.
One "trader" has been losing $50-120K every year since 2008. Is he a newbie?
Another one blew some $1 million within 5 last years. Her company's clients ain't average Joes but it would be same with small investors.

Dude, seriously, you wire the money, the broker credits your account and you can start trading. How complicated is that for you?

Of course you are talking about NEWBIES, but I wasn't. It is called Topsteptrader, not Newbietrader, although I guess they should rename themselves. Originally the whole idea of this business was to discover trading talent and back them with more money. Well, if you already have talent and experience, why do you need the education part?

They started the education side of their business much later when they realized that there is an inherent Catch 22 in their original business plan, namely, truly good traders don't need their kind of backing when they can make it on their own. That simple. Sure education brings in good money, but that wasn't their original mission statement. I bet their education business makes more profits than their backing business...

So you are arguing about how much cheaper for a newbie to start out at TST, but that is not what I am talking about. The point is that they are confusing and misleading people and after 4 years even people here fairly familiar with them can't even agree on the interpretation of their rules...

But I guess you agree with their marketing slogan:

"Don't lose your money quickly to the markets, when you can pay it slowly to TST."

 

[smallStops]

my wife is CA working for large accounting firm. So, she has few "traders" there among clients who consistently lose money year in year out and not a small stakes.

One "trader" has been losing $50-120K every year since 2008. Is he a newbie?

Another one blew some $1 million within 5 last years.

Thanks for telling it like it is.

 

[Pekelo]

1.Pekelo, you do not get my point. You do not have to be a newbie to lose money.
2. Majority lose money in this business even after they are not newbies.
3. I would totally lose some 10 times more than I paid to TST.
4.TST allows to learn and practice under supervision,
5.One "trader" has been losing $50-120K every year since 2008. Is he a newbie?

1. You don't get mine either. TST was originally interested in PROFITABLE traders to back them up. That was their business plan. The education part came later.

2. True and that is why it is good business to provide education, because some of them needs education FOREVER. But again, the main discussion here is about getting backed. If you are a losing trader, there is no point trying to get backed, obviously.

3. And I don't disagree. The real question is though, after all your TST education, will you be able to achieve backed status OR at least make enough on your own that you earn at least the education cost back???

4. So do plenty of other education companies...

5. He is probably a gambler. Some people just can't be helped and they have no business being in the trading industry. Now here is a relevant question: Does TST tell this to a candidate or they keep taking combine and education fees forever from the addict??

Again, you keep arguing that TST is good for education and a money saver and I don't remember I ever said otherwise, but that is not what most critics argue about. Any education is good that helps a trader and saves him money and time. It is the backing business what they are shady and misleading and confusing about.

If you are not getting this, there is really no point in repeating myself. And it is very questionable that their strict rules are helping or hidrancing would be candidates. You can be a very fine established trader and still not being able to pass the Combine or you can even make a living by trading and still making much less than their required 60% per MONTH return rate on capital...

You (or any TST apologist) never answered the ultimate question: Why should an excellent trader (60% a month I would call excellent) need any kind of TST type of backing up??

Time will tell, in the maintime I am going to work on my losing duration vs. winning duration ratio.

P.S.: How was my math in my previous posts, did I make any calculation mistakes? Maybe your wife could check them....

 

[shiko2000]

Pekelo, the relevant thing about which I agree with you is what are the prospects once trade becomes Sr. Trader. It looks like there is no information and the only way to find out is to pass Combine, get funded, get to Sr. Trader status and then have a straight and serious talk with however makes decisions there regarding further prospects.