Topsteptrader

[volente_00]

Hey Joe

I think we have all beaten this to death now, even I am getting tired with it and I am quite persistent. Suffice to say I don't think its a great comparison, the biggie is accountability. i just know a trader trading his own smaller account with no accountability will exhibit different behaviour compared to trading in a transparent, accountable, managed environment. The former will reload/break rules and continually tell themselves 'ok this time I will follow my rules', 'it's ok my rules were wrong, I will change them and stick to them this time' etc etc. Of course we are not talking about battle hardened 5-10+ year veterans with discipline of rock, these people are rare but do exist and are likely to do well in any environment.

So why is TST any different from an accountability standpoint when they let you do the same exact thing for $100 ? To even offer this creates a false pretense since you would not have the same option trading live for them.

The whole gig is set up to attract nieve rookies and washed up failed traders who can't even scrape up enough to trade futures intraday retail. The simple fact is if you can trade then there is zero benefit for paying tst for a chance for them to take 20% of your profits.

 

[ScalperJoe]

The idea of "continuous combine" is a genius money maker and a huge oxymoron. Just imagine, what does it do? It removes the time element from the combine, the only thing that makes one combine comparable to another.

As we agreed with Joe, the Combine is just the first and rather irrelevant test in the series of tests before you can take the fat paycheck. If it takes five continuous combines to reach the profit goal, little Jimmie, you are probably not cut out for it...

Joe used the airline frequent flier analogy, and it is perfect. The continuous combine is rather dollar spent vs. profit made.

I think the point you're making is if a trader took greater than 10 trading days within 2 or 3 months to generate the 9k in profits (in a continuous 150k combine) vs. ONLY ten days within a calendar month (in a regular 150k combine), then it's not comparable?

However, the continuous combine's advantage is to eliminate the need to cherry pick the optimal ten days within a calendar month. If a trader chooses 10 days within a series of months, then it's no different than the 10 day regular combine.

BOTH traders are required to build up their respective profit cushions over a maximum TEN days in the live account, regardless of whether they reached the live account with the continuous or regular combine.

Of course, if your profits are spread out over a lot more than 10 trading days, then the odds of building up a bigger cushion in the 10 days of the live account are reduced.

And yes, I think we agree that the combine isn't the true measure of the trader's ability, it's the live account that matters.

 

[ScalperJoe]

Ok I will bite. If a company is truly interested in backing you as a trader why are you now allowed to pay $100 and get mulligans to restart your combine if this whole scheme is not about nickel and diming dreamers ?

Personally, I don't agree with that rule, even though it allows the trader to continue without waiting out the month and just restarting a new combine. It adds another layer of fees, so it's up to the trader to either pay it or use the remaining days of the combine account as practice.

 

[Pekelo]

Joe as usual, we are in agreement, but I will summarize it for newbies' sake:

I think the point you're making is

1. A trader passing the CC in 5 times longer than the other trader has an equity curve 5 times slower. Specially when passing traders are plenty, why would anyone want to back a slow performer, (everything being equal)? Just doesn't make sense...

2. Yes, eventually for TST it doesn't matter which one you passed, because the true test will be the FTP and cushion building. That's why I said, it is a no risk money maker for them.

3. You brought up another good point, the ridiculousness of backing someone based just on a random 10 days performance. Obviously the longer, the better, but TST rather see your 10 days sim trading than your 2-5-whatever years real money profitable record. How sound is that?

Here is the biggest problem (call it Catch 22) with their business idea, and it is not just TST related, but any kind of backing arrangement:

When someone is backed with too small of a trading capital that can be obtained in other ways, the incentive for the trader to stay with the backer diminishes over time. So better the trader, the faster he is going to leave the arrangement.

As Volente has pointed out multiple times, beside the 20% profitshare, there is the tax considerations too. So why would any excellent trader stick to any backer and give up 40% of its brutto profits (again, including the tax loss because of the employee status) when he could be just on his own as easily? The trading OPM argument just doesn't cut it because after a few months, years very profitable trading the trader should be comfortable trading his own money too. And if he is losing, he might not lose his own capital but he does lose his income, so in a way it is his money too no matter what...

Let's use a film analogy:
Just ask any famous actor who made a TV series famous, how come after the 2nd or 3rd season they are also the producer of that show? Well, because that is where the big money is. The show depends on them, so they have negotiating power, and get a better deal...

The same with trading. Unless you have special circumstances (like you can't open a broker account for various reasons,etc.) if you are an excellent trader, you should be producing your own trading, period...

So because of this rather simple logic, no excellent trader will stick to any kind of backing deal in the long run....

 

[londonkid]

The simple fact is if you can trade then there is zero benefit for paying tst for a chance for them to take 20% of your profits.

The Doomongers will never stop. I have been over and over the advantages of trading with TST. TST have 100s of funded traders - FACT. You admitted in the past that you could not pass a combine. That says it all.

 

[londonkid]

Personally, I don't agree with that rule

Here we go again. Why moan about the rules? Focus on what you can affect, edge and discipline. Bitching about the rules is a losers attitude. All you need to do is make 19 ticks a day with sensible risk. QED

 

[londonkid]

A trader passing the CC in 5 times longer than the other trader has an equity curve 5 times slower. Specially when passing traders are plenty, why would anyone want to back a slow performer, (everything being equal)? Just doesn't make sense...

The traders who take longer have shown they can trade their account within set risk parameters and meet the goal. Sure they didn't do it as quickly as the 10 day combine traders but maybe the 10 day combiners take on average more attempts to hit the target. your logic is false.

Yes, eventually for TST it doesn't matter which one you passed, because the true test will be the FTP and cushion building. That's why I said, it is a no risk money maker for them.

Yes once passed everyone is then on the same funded trader rules. It's not a no risk endeavour for TST, they have costs as a business, its perfectly possible for them to take a loss. again your logic is false.

So because of this rather simple logic, no excellent trader will stick to any kind of backing deal in the long run....

i am afraid you are wrong. There are a plethora of very successful prop traders who choose to take a salary plus bonus or trade via backing. Granted if you have a few million in your account then you will likely back yourself.

 

[volente_00]

The Doomongers will never stop. I have been over and over the advantages of trading with TST. TST have 100s of funded traders - FACT. You admitted in the past that you could not pass a combine. That says it all.

No response to why does tst allow you to pay $100 to restart your combine as much as you want if you blow up ?
That alone throws your tst making you accountable argument out the window.
If you can't see what this really is then you will just have to keep wasting your time and learn the hard way.

100's of funded traders yet none are putting up any decent numbers after 5 years of existence.
Why do you think that is ?
Where are all of these funded traders making a killing ?
If anyone was putting up any decent numbers you can bet your ass they would be using it for marketing.

And why are you just now passing the combine 30 months later when you were trying back in 2012 on the other thread?


Be sure and post your 6 figure 1099 to prove us all wrong. Till then you are just another undercapitalized nieve sucker caught up in a endless dream because you were baffled with bullshit.

 

[londonkid]

No response to why does tst allow you to pay $100 to restart your combine as much as you want if you blow up ?
That alone throws your tst making you accountable argument out the window.

If you want me to comment on the $100 restart combine then here goes. I look at it from a positive standpoint, let's say you choose to do the continuous combine and you immediately hit a run of bad losers/variance. The $100 allows you to restart. You are still accountable from moment you do a $100 restart, you still have to hit the target. Of course traders who lack edge and/or discipline will overuse it. These people would likely lose more money in their own account where there is no accountability at a faster rate imo.

I don't buy the whole TST is a scam because it makes money from combine fees argument coming from some quarters. TST is offering a genuine service every time a trader clicks and decides to pay a combine fee, they are offering a trading test in an accountable environment with firm rules.

It is only natural that we have a crowd of failed traders (the vast majority) crying variations of 'its a scam', 'nobody makes any money from it', 'why would i want to pass it anyway'. This is just human nature to self protect with some grouping thrown in.

100's of funded traders yet none are putting up any decent numbers after 5 years of existence.
Why do you think that is ?
Where are all of these funded traders making a killing ?
If anyone was putting up any decent numbers you can bet your ass they would be using it for marketing.

First up you are making an assumption that none of them are making 'decent' numbers. You don't know this. I don't know about you but in my experience people who make decent money (in any endeavour) don't tend to go shouting and promoting it. Of course some vulgar people do but they tend to be doing it for other reasons. eg. selling subscriptions with a lambo in the background type.

Long term profitable traders are rare. The ones I met are mostly humble and keep their heads down. Can you see that what you are saying isn't that logical. You are saying that a group of people don't exist because they are not posting their numbers when that group is a c. 2% subset of a larger losing group.

And why are you just now passing the combine 30 months later when you were trying back in 2012 on the other thread?

I started my first and only combine on 18th June of this year. fact.

Be sure and post your 6 figure 1099 to prove us all wrong.

If I do eventually go on to make 6 figures via TST and posted the proof do you really think that would change things. Do you really think the doom mongers would say, 'yep you are right I was wrong. Some people do actually make decent money via TST' or do you think the replies would be a combination of the following:

• you photoshopped it
• you got lucky, bet you cant do it again
• you are an outlier, doesnt prove anything

Then you have to consider what upside there would be for someone to post up proof. The hate mob would be all over them like a rash.

Till then you are just another undercapitalized nieve sucker caught up in a endless dream because you were baffled with bullshit.

harsh emotional words. I prefer logical facts. I am not stupid, NO amount of logical argument will stop you from saying TST is a scam.

 

[ScalperJoe]

Here we go again. Why moan about the rules? Focus on what you can affect, edge and discipline. Bitching about the rules is a losers attitude. All you need to do is make 19 ticks a day with sensible risk. QED

Read my reply to volente's post again. He asked a simple question regarding the $100 restart, for which I posted my own personal response, and made it very clear that "it's up to the trader to either pay it or use the remaining days of the combine account as practice."

Personally disagreeing with a rule isn't "bitching about the rules." Volente was just stating a fact. And yes, it's quite possible to pass the combine with discipline, otherwise TST wouldn't have over 150 traders this year who have passed.