TopstepTrader and Patak Trading Partners- Any and all questions answered here

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Winston,

Mav said he has friends who cleared 7 figures, so I asked him to post their risk limits. Just for newbies education point of view. Btw, I was at a shop for a short time and my daily risk limit was 15k, and monthly loss limit @ 50k, if I hit that I don't trade for rest of the month. But I never pulled 7 figures, not even close. So, my risk limits are not that relevant here. However, it will be instructive to learn about Mavrick's friends loss limit. I hope I answered you. Enjoy the extended weekend. Cheers.
 
Quote from WinstonTJ:





You keep making reference to the fact that you are a "professional trader". Why don't you go ask all of your buddies what their risk parameters are and post that up. Anyone clearing 7-figures has essentially self-imposed risk parameters and most probably has a history and relationship with the firm. Such that they will have covered losses in the past just as they may request an abnormally large check today. I watched a guy call his wife in tears and have her wire over $300k to cover losses on the day of the flash crash. At the same time some guys were requesting 6-figure withdrawal checks. Have you ever experienced anything like that? If you have why don't you post up those details.



Again, if you are the "professional trader" that you say you are, why don't you post up all the numbers you and your buddies have in risk parameters? How much capital are you trading? What is it leveraged? How much is your daily loss limit? That would be a much more "normal" situation vs. comparing a complete new trader to a veteran clearing 6-figures. [/B]
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I think if you read this thread you will see how much capital he is trading....

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3253367#post3253367
 
Quote from gmst:Enjoy the extended weekend. Cheers.
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I work London hours from the East Coast these days... My holiday was last weekend and I get to go to work at 3:30am tomorrow... :mad:
 
Quote from wavefinder:

I think if you read this thread you will see how much capital he is trading....

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3253367#post3253367
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Fascinating. From the first few posts it appears the individual displays a pathological inability to understand and manage risk. That appears to manifest itself in this thread as a deep resentment of anything but the most liberal of risk control limits.

Thank you for enlightening us all.
 
You know Mav - you are a master at manipulating situations and people with words! But you found in me a master at punching holes in your elaborate stories with numbers! LOL.

You would have made it very far in life had you gone to Harvard Business School. You are like Harvard MBAs - you talk authoritatively and are excellent with creating big picture views and excel at using words to create imaginary reality, Harvard guys are absolute geniuses with stories. But us, Wharton guys - we back everything we say with numbers. We model everything numerically. This is in our DNA.

Anyways, I have enjoyed my little conversation with you here and in the other thread. I won't really mind meeting you for a beer sometime - maybe in 2014. I would rather let some water pass under the bridge, before we meet, if we meet. That will help cool the tempers. LOL.

I have an advice for you and Hoag and Eddie. All of you understand this business model intimately. Just open up your own shop. Offer slightly easier combines and slightly cheaper combines, throw a few more gimmicks. Get ET sponsorship from day 1. You have a good name here at ET. Come up with a better product and a more balanced product than Patak and people will flock to your firm. You guys will be very successful. The business has good potential, according to my calculations you might end up making anywhere between 500k to 3 million a year. After couple of years, the industry might get saturated and might not remain profitable anymore, because competitive combines will keep emerging, as people will realize how attractive this business is. Make 1-5 million over next 2-4 yrs, and retire.

You might think why I am moving to the dark side, after fighting with you over the last 4 days! Well, truth is - I have realized noobs will always remain noobs, fresh meat will always be available in the market, and people will always keep fleecing them. My preaching them here won't stop them from getting raped. So, at least if there are competing combines and a whole market place for combines develops, overtime, newbies will get a better deal just because of the market competition.

Over this weekend, just think about the above 2 paragraphs. It makes lot of sense to you guys personally to strike out on your own. No hard feelings I hope. For me, it was just a professional discussion. Thats all. Cheers.
 
Quote from gmst:

% of traders who go live, then fail 1 time and go live again = 1%*10% which is 1 in 1000. Patak loses 2k on each such trader.
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Interesting math problem. Something doesn't jive.

If there are 10,000 traders in the Combine and 1% of them pass, 100 traders will go live.

How many live traders fail and go back to the Combine?

If half of them fail, then 50 will go back to the Combine.

With 10% passing rate of the second Combine, 995 traders will go live.

So, then Patak loses $2k x 995.

Feel free to correct me.
 
Quote from SteveNYC:

Interesting math problem. Something doesn't jive.

If there are 10,000 traders in the Combine and 1% of them pass, 100 traders will go live.

How many live traders fail and go back to the Combine?

If half of them fail, then 50 will go back to the Combine.

With 10% passing rate of the second Combine, 995 traders will go live.

So, then Patak loses $2k x 995.

Feel free to correct me.
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Just trying to model the business model using 'reasonable' assumptions.

When I said success rate increases to 10%, this increase in success rate applies conditionally only to combiners who made it the first time. For the guys who could never make it the first time, the success probability stays at 1%, as it should - since we know that the long term unconditional probability of passing combines among all traders is around 1-2%.

However, the traders who are successful in their first attempt to go live, they are good traders (and not just lucky - at least this is what Patak wants us to believe). So, for these traders with skill, I assumed the conditional probability of success after every successful move into live trading increases by 10%. Cheers.
 
GMST I browsed your old journal for a minute. I mean the following sincerely and in no way is it intended as teasing or an insult; maybe you should consider that you don't understand risk management, or are incapabable of implementing it. Maybe it would benefit you to put yourself in a strict program where you either manage risk or you are done.

Look at it this way. How much money have you lost trading? Per day, week and month average over your life as a trader? How much would you stand to lose if you participated in this program? Maybe you should learn by losing 300 bucks instead of the 10's of thousands as you have done in the past.

Would you be better off right now if you had traded in this program from day 1 instead of your own account? Worst case scenario you would be bored, frustrated and down $300. Best case, you "got it" at some point, started making some money, and maybe even went back to your own account at some point.

Right now you are down (I didn't really do the math but rough estimate) at least 50k. What a lot of people don't get, myself included in the past, is that it isn't a race to riches. You can do that fun compounding math in your head all day long, but until you can go a year without blowing up it really doesn't matter.
 
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