TopstepTrader and Patak Trading Partners- Any and all questions answered here
- Thread starter MichaelPatak
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I am in Chicago and no firm does this. Does patak even have traders? Why when i search on linkedin there are no patak traders?
Quote from gmst:
Wrong, Wrong, Absolutely Wrong! Volente has been saying this in the other thread for sometime now. I will write it down more clearly so that everyone is clear on this point.
For an individual trader, yes it is their money to a large extent. As an individual trader, you are going to pay for combine + as a live trader, they are keeping USD 1.26 per round trip from you in comms. So, on an individual trader basis also, they are building a little bit of reserve on which they are extending risk to an individual trader.
Game completely changes however if you consider all Patak traders as a group:
From the perspective of Patak traders as a group, a live trader is risking other trader's money and NOT PATAK's money. As I said earlier - its an elaborate scheme. In fact, it is as risk-free business as it gets and I bet 10% of ET regulars have the resources to put together a competing business like TST in a fortnight. LOL. That would be interesting. 100 clones of TST in 3 months
Lets look at the numbers:
Consensus is that 1% of traders pass combines in their first attempt. Lets increase it to 5%, so 95% traders are paying for combines.
Lets say, they have 500 traders doing 200$ combines for a 50k account. So, at 5%, 25 would pass it and their combine income gets refunded. So, 475 will pay for the combines.
TST's combines revenue = 475*200 = 95k per month
The risk they are taking on live traders before they cut-them off = 2 times the daily loss limit. Daily loss limit for 50k account is 1k, so total loss before they cut a trader = 2k.
So, if all these 25 live traders lose money from day 1 of live trading, Total exposure of Patak on these 25 traders = 25*2k = 50k.
Still, Patak made a risk-free profit of 95k-50k = 45k. And this doesn't include the commissions income. LOL.
So, the marketing is successful in fooling the trader think that Patak is backing them. When the fact of the matter is other combine traders are backing a live trader.
Doesn't mean anything. Any normal person will be courteous while meeting someone else, especially if he is in the business of scouting traders. Madoff was also nice - he raised billions. Patak is a small fish compared to Madoff.
If it is a winning proposition, then traders at Patak must be making 30k, 50k, 100k a year. As Lucias has asked, Let Mr. Patak respond on this. Because if only 5 or 10 people are making that kind of money among the thousands who apply, then this is not a winning proposition.
So everyone that works for Patak must be working for free than because if you split any of that 45k, you are living in poverty. You also assume everyone does not get a refund.
I find it pretty offensive that you would characterize this as a ponzi scheme. No one is arguing that some of the combine money gets put into the risk of backing other traders, at least I'm not. But again, WHO CARES? I think it should be pretty obvious that part of that happens, but the big money is in getting profitable traders who are loyal to the prop firm. They are separate entities, so no the other traders are not directly funding you. If it is so easy, get yourself backed by a bunch of traders. Pretty simple right? We are all profitable traders here right? Of course we are, no one at ET fails at trading, so be one of those profitable traders, pass the combine and make money. You won't be one of those that just does deposit after deposit, right?
Why must all live traders be making money? That has nothing to do with Patak. We all know traders fail. How is that a bad mark on him? Of course if you are a losing trader, knowing the news and having a good platform won't save you, but they are good tools none the less. I said just those alone are worth the $100-200/month.
I don`t understand why it is an issue that Patak is actually making money on this operation?
I am sure they have expenses as well.
Seems normal to me.
I am sure they have expenses as well.
Seems normal to me.
Well because funding traders is apparently suppose to be a charity where people freely give their money for other people to lose with no rules or anything on how it is to be traded. They have also stated that it is the clearing firm that set the commission rate, so he is not making money off commissions. Unless, you are calling him a liar on that, gmst?
I don't know if he ever said this explicitly. But if he has said that he is not making any money from the commissions, then Yes I am calling him a LIAR on this point. Please read my post#2 on the other thread "The bitter truth about Patak trading". Cheers.
I don't know how courts define a Ponzi scheme exactly, but in the general scheme of things, yes it looks like it is similar. I won't say that though since I don't know the exact definition.
Agreed here. Cheers.
A firm can get comms discount based on the volume of all its live traders put together. But they are charging a trader 1.25+exchange fess per side. According to my calculations, they are keeping in 63 cents per side = 1.26$ per round trip.
So, yes if they say they are not making money on comms, they are lying. Just ask other professional futures trader, everyone will agree. Cheers.
You have no proof that he is lying. All you have is conjecture. A ponzi scheme is using other people's money to PAY earlier investors. It has nothing to do with providing a product and then using that money to fund another project. That's something else entirely.
Alright its a conjecture and I can't prove it but I am 99.99% certain that they are making money of comms. I will be happy to have a 10k bet on this.
Other professional futures traders - feel free to comment if you think Patak is making money from comms or not. It will help clarify. Thanks.
Quote from gmst:
Wrong, Wrong, Absolutely Wrong! Volente has been saying this in the other thread for sometime now. I will write it down more clearly so that everyone is clear on this point.
For an individual trader, yes it is their money to a large extent. As an individual trader, you are going to pay for combine + as a live trader, they are keeping USD 1.26 per round trip from you in comms. So, on an individual trader basis also, they are building a little bit of reserve on which they are extending risk to an individual trader.
Game completely changes however if you consider all Patak traders as a group:
From the perspective of Patak traders as a group, a live trader is risking other trader's money and NOT PATAK's money. As I said earlier - its an elaborate scheme. In fact, it is as risk-free business as it gets and I bet 10% of ET regulars have the resources to put together a competing business like TST in a fortnight. LOL. That would be interesting. 100 clones of TST in 3 months
Lets look at the numbers:
Consensus is that 1% of traders pass combines in their first attempt. Lets increase it to 5%, so 95% traders are paying for combines.
Lets say, they have 500 traders doing 200$ combines for a 50k account. So, at 5%, 25 would pass it and their combine income gets refunded. So, 475 will pay for the combines.
TST's combines revenue = 475*200 = 95k per month
The risk they are taking on live traders before they cut-them off = 2 times the daily loss limit. Daily loss limit for 50k account is 1k, so total loss before they cut a trader = 2k.
So, if all these 25 live traders lose money from day 1 of live trading, Total exposure of Patak on these 25 traders = 25*2k = 50k.
Still, Patak made a risk-free profit of 95k-50k = 45k. And this doesn't include the commissions income. LOL.
So, the marketing is successful in fooling the trader think that Patak is backing them. When the fact of the matter is other combine traders are backing a live trader.
Doesn't mean anything. Any normal person will be courteous while meeting someone else, especially if he is in the business of scouting traders. Madoff was also nice - he raised billions. Patak is a small fish compared to Madoff.
If it is a winning proposition, then traders at Patak must be making 30k, 50k, 100k a year. As Lucias has asked, Let Mr. Patak respond on this. Because if only 5 or 10 people are making that kind of money among the thousands who apply, then this is not a winning proposition.
Your argument is logical. You mentioned that you are getting tired of this discussion. When it is over, and you have rested and refreshed, take on another grand cause. This one will help millions of people all over the world.
I always joked with my clients that the best business model is university education. Just think about it;
1) Before you get anything, you pay money to them.
2) they teach you.
3) periodically you pay them more money, and all you have had in return is their time.
4) they evaluate you, if you fail you get nothing. It's all your fault for being too stupid
5) if you pay them even more money, they will give you another chance to learn.
6) you pass, and you expect to get a job based on the wonderful ads universities post about the successes graduates have experienced in the job market.
7) the best efforts of Bernanke et al notwithstanding, you can't get a job.
8) I paid for my kids educations, but if you suffered the misfortune of needing a student loan, you are jobless and in debt.
Stop and think a moment and tell me if Patak's offer is really so dreadful in comparison.
If you want to tilt at windmills let me know and time permitting I will join you. When people say I have to do something, I say no without thinking. But let's do it for the grand cause, minnows are a waste of time.
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