TopstepTrader and Patak Trading Partners- Any and all questions answered here

[gmst]

LF - one suggestion. Get them to give everything to you in writing, all the conditions, absolutely everything. Don't rely on what a scout told you on phone.

If the trailing stop is on realized profits and not open profits, tell them to clarify this clearly in the PDF.

What I really find odd is why there is no place on the PDF for the trader to sign! Anyways. Cheers.

 

[volente_00]

Quote from Laissez Faire:

This is what I find fascinating as well. Why not do thorough research on your own and talk directly with the firm instead of spending all this time here discussing interpretations and rumors about their model?

Personally, I had a few concerns with their model and if it were even realistic for me at all to be successful following their parameters. Because of this, I booked a call with one of their scouts to talk to them directly and get it confirmed once and for all.

My main concerns was if there was a profit objective AFTER completing the Combine and going live and exactly how the trailing stop rule worked. If it were on open profits, it would put severe limitations on my trading, but learning that it was on realized profits, it definitely was something I could live with and even condone on my own. I also learned that there were no profit objectives on the live account and a few other things as well.

I know what I`m going to and I know what to expect. It is my choice to take it or not. I completely understand why they have strict performance criteria and I would not have done it differently myself if I were putting forth money and backing traders.

Now, if it is true that there are people who have successfully completed the Combine, but not allowed to go live, that is of course a major concern and definitely something I would be interested in finding out of.

But the model as I understand it is solid and attractive to me.

Good luck
Please be sure to report back how your experience goes. You are one of the few here that I know will give an honest assessment

 

[Laissez Faire]

Quote from gmst:

LF - one suggestion. Get them to give everything to you in writing, all the conditions, absolutely everything. Don't rely on what a scout told you on phone.

If the trailing stop is on realized profits and not open profits, tell them to clarify this clearly in the PDF.

What I really find odd is why there is no place on the PDF for the trader to sign! Anyways. Cheers.

Absolutely.

Regarding the PDF, I suspect that this may be just be a draft and not the actual contract.

Quote from volente_00:

Good luck
Please be sure to report back how your experience goes. You are on of the few here that I know will give an honest assessment

Thanks, Volente.

As it looks now, I will be entering the Combine later this fall when my private situation allows it and provided that I don`t discover anything negative that I`m currently not aware of.

Hell, I may not even be able to pass the Combine, but I will at least try.

 

[ExchangeBonds]

Quote from gmst:

LF - one suggestion. Get them to give everything to you in writing, all the conditions, absolutely everything. Don't rely on what a scout told you on phone.

If the trailing stop is on realized profits and not open profits, tell them to clarify this clearly in the PDF.

What I really find odd is why there is no place on the PDF for the trader to sign! Anyways. Cheers.

It is on realized profits. If you can't trust what they say on the phone, why do you want to do business with them in the first place? Sounds like the making of a shitty relationship. They are very up front with all the rules. Either abide by them or don't and move on. It's that simple.

 

[HurricaneUS]

Quote from snooptrdr:

we all know what churning an account means... i believe what some are referring to is churning people. big difference.

I was also surprised Mav didn't pick up on the difference between the two.

 

[gmst]

Quote from ExchangeBonds:

It is on realized profits. If you can't trust what they say on the phone, why do you want to do business with them in the first place? Sounds like the making of a shitty relationship. They are very up front with all the rules. Either abide by them or don't and move on. It's that simple.

Common, I am not being unreasonable if I am telling to have everything in writing. When you open a fully funded brokerage account, then also you sign an agreement. Verbal stuff doesn't hold. Please don't get angry at me

 

[ExchangeBonds]

You are asking for a contract before you are even live with them. Sounds pretty unreasonable to me.

-Edit, you can also go ask any of the live traders questions if they want to talk to you and ask them, or do you think they are all lieing too?

 

[SteveNYC]

Quote from luckyputanski:

Michael,
Do I understand correctly that you will not back profitable traders with 5+ track record if they in drawdown last year, but you will back traders who got lucky with last 10-15 trades?

Lol.

The whole scheme is so damn complicated.

It just looks like a scheme where Patak doesn't lose if it's head or tails. The coin could probably land on its side and Patsk won't lose.

Probably a raw deal for desperate traders.

Whateva.

 

[gmst]

Quote from ExchangeBonds:

The thing that seems to bug most the people here is the short amount of time given if you do bad at the start. Again, IT IS THERE MONEY, not yours.

Wrong, Wrong, Absolutely Wrong! Volente has been saying this in the other thread for sometime now. I will write it down more clearly so that everyone is clear on this point.

For an individual trader, yes it is there money to a large extent. As an individual trader, you are going to pay for combine + as a live trader, they are keeping USD 1.26 per round trip from you in comms. So, on an individual trader basis also, they are building a little bit of reserve on which they are extending risk to an individual trader.



Game completely changes however if you consider all Patak traders as a group:

From the perspective of Patak traders as a group, a live trader is risking other trader's money and NOT PATAK's money. As I said earlier - its an elaborate scheme. In fact, it is as risk-free business as it gets and I bet 10% of ET regulars have the resources to put together a competing business like TST in a fortnight. LOL. That would be interesting. 100 clones of TST in 3 months

Lets look at the numbers:
Consensus is that 1% of traders pass combines in their first attempt. Lets increase it to 5%, so 95% traders are paying for combines.

Lets say, they have 500 traders doing 200$ combines for a 50k account. So, at 5%, 25 would pass it and their combine income gets refunded. So, 475 will pay for the combines.

TST's combines revenue = 475*200 = 95k per month
The risk they are taking on live traders before they cut-them off = 2 times the daily loss limit. Daily loss limit for 50k account is 1k, so total loss before they cut a trader = 2k.

So, if all these 25 live traders lose money from day 1 of live trading, Total exposure of Patak on these 25 traders = 25*2k = 50k.

Still, Patak made a risk-free profit of 95k-50k = 45k. And this doesn't include the commissions income. LOL.

So, the marketing is successful in fooling the trader think that Patak is backing them. When the fact of the matter is other combine traders are backing a live trader.

Quote from ExchangeBonds:


I will also say that I have met Patak before, and he is a good guy.

Doesn't mean anything. Any normal person will be courteous while meeting someone else, especially if he is in the business of scouting traders. Madoff was also nice - he raised billions. Patak is a small fish compared to Madoff.

Quote from ExchangeBonds:


Is TsT for everyone, no it isn't, but the squawk does give some good information on breaking news that most retail traders would not get in a timely manner and you get a good charting program. Getting all that for $100-200/month is in itself a good deal. Add on the chance to get a live account as a main or supplemental account, and I think it is a winning proposition.

If it is a winning proposition, then traders at Patak must be making 30k, 50k, 100k a year. As Lucias has asked, Let Mr. Patak respond on this. Because if only 5 or 10 people are making that kind of money among the thousands who apply, then this is not a winning proposition.

 

[2rosy]

Quote from MichaelPatak:

Colonial dr.. great questions...

The Combine is our way of evaluating traders who can trade todays market. Many traders send their track records into prop firms or say they can trade. We simply ask, don’t tell us show us. This was the reason for the Combine. Track records of how great you where a year ago or whatever say nothing about how good you are today. This is also how many of the prop firms evaluate and test their traders before putting any capital behind them.

I am in Chicago and no firm does this. Does patak even have traders? Why when i search on linkedin there are no patak traders?