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TopstepTrader and Patak Trading Partners- Any and all questions answered here
- Thread starter MichaelPatak
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I just wanted to say welcome to Mr. Patak. It's nice to have someone else here from a Firm to respond to questions. So many cynics, which is fine, so few to answer questions.
I think you have a completely different business model, which is fine, maybe I'll learn something as well.
Welcome and GOOD LUCK, LOL.
All the best,
Don
BTW, if you're good with Mav, you're good with me.
I think you have a completely different business model, which is fine, maybe I'll learn something as well.
Welcome and GOOD LUCK, LOL.
All the best,
Don
BTW, if you're good with Mav, you're good with me.
TST_Hoag
Thanks for the reply. Your answer was NOT showing up there earlier. Unfortunately, your answer to question #1 is extremely troubling.
I want to bring to your attention the following:
http://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/pr6155-11
And, I especially encourage you to look at the document below and note the extent that the traders were losing:
http://www.cftc.gov/ucm/groups/publ...egalpleading/enfprotradingcomplaint120711.pdf
---
Thank you for taking a look at that. I want to explain why question #1 is so important. TST/PTK (I understand they are different businesses but we'll call them TST/PTK for ease) have made 3 claims:
1. You claim you back traders. We've established that you give traders a limited amount of capital to trade but that doesn't establish whether or not that you've truly backed traders at a level where they are able to produce tangible profits. You see this is the critical question. The most important question.
2. Your program is aimed to get traders consistently profitable. To move them from the 95% losing to the 5% winning. If your program works then you should be eager to showcase your successful traders.
3. The combines don't pay the light bills. This was posed as a question rather then a statement but clearly was intended as a statement of fact.
If PTK really has traders making profits and sustaining a business then it should be trivial for you to confirm that at least some of your traders have made a tangible amount of money. We're not looking for millionaires here.
Also, when the trader is sent back to the combine after trading live, do they have to pay for the combine again or is it free for 1x or forever for them?
What is the average level of capital that TST scouted PTK traders keep in their accounts for the different tier levels? This is a relevant question for a trader who wants to pass the combine and wants to know what his peers are keeping as an average before he decides to withdraw his monthly paycheck.
I am not going to rush to judgement. You have an excellent opportunity here to make clear what PTK is about and show that your training, program, loss limits, etc actually do work. But, I'm not hearing that and that's concering.
You essentially fund a trader with $1,000 at the lowest level which is definitely not the 30k that is claimed -- of which the trader risked $175 or 18% just to have the opportunity.
It reallly looks to me that the combine is going to be a negative sum game for many good traders and is primarily designed to keep traders revolving back to the combine. The months the trader wins, he just wins his own money back but any month he loses then he loses his deposit. That doesn't sound like a fun game at all to me.
Let's look at some scenarios where a trader starts with a 3k account and his monthly returns
MONTH, PROFIT
1 300, 1000 (fails combine),
2 -100, 3000 (fails combine),
3 500, -250 (fails combine),
4 150, 3700 (fails combine),
5 1000, 2500 (fails combine),
6 -300, -500 (fails combine),
7 250, 3800 (fails combine),
8 450, 3900 fails combines),
9 350, 2500 (fails combine),
10 -100, 1500 (fails combine),
11 300, 1200 (fails combine),
12 300 3950 (fails combine),
NET: 3500, 30,050
----
Notice that we have 2 very solid traders here. One trader produces 100% return with good consistency. The other takes a 3k account to over 30k and neither would pass the combine. Both had at least some losing months, and so would have lost money trying the combine.
Thanks for the reply. Your answer was NOT showing up there earlier. Unfortunately, your answer to question #1 is extremely troubling.
I want to bring to your attention the following:
http://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/pr6155-11
And, I especially encourage you to look at the document below and note the extent that the traders were losing:
http://www.cftc.gov/ucm/groups/publ...egalpleading/enfprotradingcomplaint120711.pdf
---
Thank you for taking a look at that. I want to explain why question #1 is so important. TST/PTK (I understand they are different businesses but we'll call them TST/PTK for ease) have made 3 claims:
1. You claim you back traders. We've established that you give traders a limited amount of capital to trade but that doesn't establish whether or not that you've truly backed traders at a level where they are able to produce tangible profits. You see this is the critical question. The most important question.
2. Your program is aimed to get traders consistently profitable. To move them from the 95% losing to the 5% winning. If your program works then you should be eager to showcase your successful traders.
3. The combines don't pay the light bills. This was posed as a question rather then a statement but clearly was intended as a statement of fact.
If PTK really has traders making profits and sustaining a business then it should be trivial for you to confirm that at least some of your traders have made a tangible amount of money. We're not looking for millionaires here.
Also, when the trader is sent back to the combine after trading live, do they have to pay for the combine again or is it free for 1x or forever for them?
What is the average level of capital that TST scouted PTK traders keep in their accounts for the different tier levels? This is a relevant question for a trader who wants to pass the combine and wants to know what his peers are keeping as an average before he decides to withdraw his monthly paycheck.
I am not going to rush to judgement. You have an excellent opportunity here to make clear what PTK is about and show that your training, program, loss limits, etc actually do work. But, I'm not hearing that and that's concering.
You essentially fund a trader with $1,000 at the lowest level which is definitely not the 30k that is claimed -- of which the trader risked $175 or 18% just to have the opportunity.
It reallly looks to me that the combine is going to be a negative sum game for many good traders and is primarily designed to keep traders revolving back to the combine. The months the trader wins, he just wins his own money back but any month he loses then he loses his deposit. That doesn't sound like a fun game at all to me.
Let's look at some scenarios where a trader starts with a 3k account and his monthly returns
MONTH, PROFIT
1 300, 1000 (fails combine),
2 -100, 3000 (fails combine),
3 500, -250 (fails combine),
4 150, 3700 (fails combine),
5 1000, 2500 (fails combine),
6 -300, -500 (fails combine),
7 250, 3800 (fails combine),
8 450, 3900 fails combines),
9 350, 2500 (fails combine),
10 -100, 1500 (fails combine),
11 300, 1200 (fails combine),
12 300 3950 (fails combine),
NET: 3500, 30,050
----
Notice that we have 2 very solid traders here. One trader produces 100% return with good consistency. The other takes a 3k account to over 30k and neither would pass the combine. Both had at least some losing months, and so would have lost money trying the combine.
How many traders are in the current combine ?
I wanted to add that until you can demonstrate that your program works by answering question #1 that I have serious concerns that your program, instead of helping to create successful traders, is more likely to trap many good to great traders in a losing revolving door scheme. A scheme where the trader is rewarded by getting his own money back when he wins but loses his entire deposit when he comes up short.
Michael,
Do I understand correctly that you will not back profitable traders with 5+ track record if they in drawdown last year, but you will back traders who got lucky with last 10-15 trades?
Do I understand correctly that you will not back profitable traders with 5+ track record if they in drawdown last year, but you will back traders who got lucky with last 10-15 trades?
Quote from Lucias:
TST_Hoag
Thanks for the reply. Your answer was NOT showing up there earlier. Unfortunately, your answer to question #1 is extremely troubling.
they're stonewalling...
you can bet your ass that if the answer to your question #1 was "yes" and "yes" then they would have touted it.
HurricaneUS, unfortunately, I think you are more then likely right: they are stonewalling. And, its a shame because there are so many schemers out their trying to get traders money and a service this could be really helpful if it was legitament. No traders were able to obtain tangible profits under the Regan scheme, and there isn't any evidence, not even TST/PTK's word, that they have traders producing tangible profits. I'm sure if I were running such a scheme and reading that CFTC report that it'd send a chill down my spine. Patak clearly hopes that keeping the companies seperate will protect him.
We've already established that, at the lowest tier, the 30k account awarded is a complete fabrication. The real risk capital given is only 1k. 1k isn't very much to come up with or risk. A reasonable risk cap should be at least 4x-8x the daily loss limit. This would be at a minimum double what they provide. The reasons are based on mathematics and common sense.
I want to point out something for anyone thinking of trying this. You have to clear $4,000 in the combine to get funded live. It is only rational that you should be more then 50/50 confident to try this. So, let's halve the profit target to $2,000. Since we've reduced the goal by 1/2, how confident do you think you would be of that? I'd say 60/40 to 70/30 minimum. Let's reduce it by another 25%. Now your goal is only $1500. I'm guessing if you have a snowball's chance in hell of doing 4k in the combine that you should pretty darn confident that you can do $1500. Are you seeing what I'm getting at?
If you go live and manage to do $1500 then you will have 50% more risk capital then Patak provides to you after just one month! If you come up short and make just $1,000 (1/4th what you believed you could do.. mighty confident there weren't you) then you still have as much risk cap as Patak provides and keep 100% profits.
We've already established that, at the lowest tier, the 30k account awarded is a complete fabrication. The real risk capital given is only 1k. 1k isn't very much to come up with or risk. A reasonable risk cap should be at least 4x-8x the daily loss limit. This would be at a minimum double what they provide. The reasons are based on mathematics and common sense.
I want to point out something for anyone thinking of trying this. You have to clear $4,000 in the combine to get funded live. It is only rational that you should be more then 50/50 confident to try this. So, let's halve the profit target to $2,000. Since we've reduced the goal by 1/2, how confident do you think you would be of that? I'd say 60/40 to 70/30 minimum. Let's reduce it by another 25%. Now your goal is only $1500. I'm guessing if you have a snowball's chance in hell of doing 4k in the combine that you should pretty darn confident that you can do $1500. Are you seeing what I'm getting at?
If you go live and manage to do $1500 then you will have 50% more risk capital then Patak provides to you after just one month! If you come up short and make just $1,000 (1/4th what you believed you could do.. mighty confident there weren't you) then you still have as much risk cap as Patak provides and keep 100% profits.
Quote from Lucias:
HurricaneUS, unfortunately, I think you are more then likely right: they are stonewalling. And, its a shame because there are so many schemers out their trying to get traders money and a service this could be really helpful if it was legitament. No traders were able to obtain tangible profits under the Regan scheme, and there isn't any evidence, not even TST/PTK's word, that they have traders producing tangible profits. I'm sure if I were running such a scheme and reading that CFTC report that it'd send a chill down my spine. Patak clearly hopes that keeping the companies seperate will protect him.
We've already established that, at the lowest tier, the 30k account awarded is a complete fabrication. The real risk capital given is only 1k. 1k isn't very much to come up with or risk. A reasonable risk cap should be at least 4x-8x the daily loss limit. This would be at a minimum double what they provide. The reasons are based on mathematics and common sense.
I want to point out something for anyone thinking of trying this. You have to clear $4,000 in the combine to get funded live. It is only rational that you should be more then 50/50 confident to try this. So, let's halve the profit target to $2,000. Since we've reduced the goal by 1/2, how confident do you think you would be of that? I'd say 60/40 to 70/30 minimum. Let's reduce it by another 25%. Now your goal is only $1500. I'm guessing if you have a snowball's chance in hell of doing 4k in the combine that you should pretty darn confident that you can do $1500. Are you seeing what I'm getting at?
If you go live and manage to do $1500 then you will have 50% more risk capital then Patak provides to you after just one month! If you come up short and make just $1,000 (1/4th what you believed you could do.. mighty confident there weren't you) then you still have as much risk cap as Patak provides and keep 100% profits.
Thanks, nice analysis and good post!
Michael,
1. Is TopStepTrader a regulated entity? And if so, by whom?
2. Who owns TopStep?
3. Is Patak Trading Partners a regulated entity? And if so by whom?
4. I see on the NFA website that you are "FLOOR BROKER REGISTERED". Do you hold any licenses or passed on proficiency exams?
5. Who is Patak's broker and clearing firm?
6. Since you are a floor broker, what is your involvement in the trades that are done by traders at Patak?
Thank You.
1. Is TopStepTrader a regulated entity? And if so, by whom?
2. Who owns TopStep?
3. Is Patak Trading Partners a regulated entity? And if so by whom?
4. I see on the NFA website that you are "FLOOR BROKER REGISTERED". Do you hold any licenses or passed on proficiency exams?
5. Who is Patak's broker and clearing firm?
6. Since you are a floor broker, what is your involvement in the trades that are done by traders at Patak?
Thank You.
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