Top prop firm to top MBA?

[gmst]

Quote from torque:

Absolutely. I have a lot of friends who did top MBA and then went to work at top consulting firms (mckinsey/bcg/bain) and they are doing interesting work, making great money, and have their pick of top jobs since unlike traders they actually have useful transferable business skillsets.

Again here you are projecting your own thoughts on to the whole world. Sure the bcg/mck guys do very interesting and fulfilling work. But to assume that an exotic derivatives trader in a bank or a high frequency trader at getco has any less transferable skill is dead wrong. Having been on both sides of the fence, I can assure you that at least skill-wise, a hf trader or an exotic trader knows much more than a typical MBA.

You should definitely do what you want fulfilling. I am just pointing out that its easy to get fooled into thinking that your worldview is shared by majority of people or is even correct.

 

[torque]

Quote from gmst:

yes you should choose a career that you find fulfilling. So, if you don't find trading interesting and want to make a career switch, go for an MBA.

But your other assumptions are plain wrong. You have not seen hubris of corporate honchos. Go and read about Cisco CEO's speech and his tone before Cisco started its massive plunge. At least, when traders get hubris, markets bring them down to earth immediately, whereas in corporate world, its easy to fool people around and kill the whole damn company and its culture due to an individual's hubris.

I have been to the country's best b-school and no doubt you will meet very interesting and smart people there. But if you think the top guys at drw or jump or getco are any less smart than an average b-school MBA, you are sadly mistaken. It is actually the other way around.

You claim that you went to the country's "best b-school." I assume that you went to either HBS or Stanford?

Yes, the top guys at getco/jump/drw are smarter than MBA students in terms of raw brainpower. No doubt. But let me ask you this. Do you personally know any of these people? I do, and quite frankly, they're not interesting or fun to hang out with. Most of them are one-dimensional quant geeks, and although I'm a proud geek myself, it does get a bit too much. Top b-schools on the other hand are made up of a very diverse class where people come from different backgrounds and bring a cool set of life experiences. It is not uncommon to be in the same class with an ex-military special forces guy, a private equity rockstar, a googler who also has a successful startup that got VC funding, a girl who escaped a war torn country and made it in strategy consulting, list goes on.

 

[torque]

Quote from gmst:

Again here you are projecting your own thoughts on to the whole world. Sure the bcg/mck guys do very interesting and fulfilling work. But to assume that an exotic derivatives trader in a bank or a high frequency trader at getco has any less transferable skill is dead wrong. Having been on both sides of the fence, I can assure you that at least skill-wise, a hf trader or an exotic trader knows much more than a typical MBA.

You should definitely do what you want fulfilling. I am just pointing out that its easy to get fooled into thinking that your worldview is shared by majority of people or is even correct.

A quant at a HFT shop, due to his strong technical skills, will have exit opps in tech/big data analytics. Aside from those types, I strongly disagree. What exit opps will an exotic derivatives trader have since he has an expertise in such a specific product/strategy? He could go to say a macro hedge fund, but those jobs are insanely tough to get. He won't be able to go to a long-short equity, event driven, or distressed debt hedge fund since trading and fundamental research don't overlap. By and large, non-quant traders are more or less confined to trading unless they can pick up enough coding skills to move into tech or do an MBA.

 

[gmst]

Quote from torque:

Yes, the top guys at getco/jump/drw are smarter than MBA students in terms of raw brainpower. No doubt. But let me ask you this. Do you personally know any of these people? I do, and quite frankly, they're not interesting or fun to hang out with. Most of them are one-dimensional quant geeks, and although I'm a proud geek myself, it does get a bit too much.

Yes, I know more than a handful of such people personally. No offense, but I can only say that if you don't find such people fun to hang out with, then you are not geeky enough

Quote from torque:

Top b-schools on the other hand are made up of a very diverse class where people come from different backgrounds and bring a cool set of life experiences. It is not uncommon to be in the same class with an ex-military special forces guy, a private equity rockstar, a googler who also has a successful startup that got VC funding, a girl who escaped a war torn country and made it in strategy consulting, list goes on.

All the story you have written about your future MBA classmates is what MBA admission departments sell to you and no doubt story sounds attractive and you obviously are impressed. Let me accept that even I was impressed similarly before I embarked on my studies. Unfortunately, when the reality bites, the experience might not be that pleasant. I actually worked with a guy who escaped a war torn country in my project team and no offense to anyone but he was the most dumb person in my whole team. Couldn't do anything and made exactly zero contribution to the group work.

10 years down the line, what really matters is the work you have done in your 10 years career, people you went to b-school with doesn't matter at all. It also doesn't matter whether you did your MBA from stanford or wharton or if you directly went and joined drw or google after your engineering. As I see it, at this stage in your career, you are well set and work for a top prop. firm. It makes little sense to take a 2 year break from your actual work to get another degree.

Only 2 reasons could justify - you are an under-performer in your current job, a misfit (and I suspect it to be true since you mentioned you don't enjoy the company of geeks and places like jump and drw are about as geeky as they get). Or you really want to change to another career which again implies that you are not really enjoying your stint at your current job, so yes you should move out.

But please don't assume that your world view is in fact correct or that majority of people believe in your world view. Anyways, I wish you luck. Already spent too much time discussing.

 

[gmst]

Quote from torque:

A quant at a HFT shop, due to his strong technical skills, will have exit opps in tech/big data analytics. Aside from those types, I strongly disagree. What exit opps will an exotic derivatives trader have since he has an expertise in such a specific product/strategy? He could go to say a macro hedge fund, but those jobs are insanely tough to get.

These guys don't need exit options because there are not many better options than being an exotic trader in Goldman. They just get their million dollar bonuses and climb up the hierarchy. Then around 40, some of these guys retire because they are already 10 million or so in NW and want to explore some other interests. People who decide to hang-on become global heads in their respective departments. Some later on join central banks, or become senators or angel investors.

My point is after 15 years as a successful exotic trader, you don't need any another career due to the pressure of making money. It liberates you, you can decide to do whatever you want including becoming an angel investor and pursuing fishing all of your spare time. My 98 cents.

 

[torque]

Quote from gmst:

These guys don't need exit options because there are not many better options than being an exotic trader in Goldman. They just get their million dollar bonuses and climb up the hierarchy. Then around 40, some of these guys retire because they are already 10 million or so in NW and want to explore some other interests. People who decide to hang-on become global heads in their respective departments. Some later on join central banks, or become senators or angel investors.

My point is after 15 years as a successful exotic trader, you don't need any another career due to the pressure of making money. It liberates you, you can decide to do whatever you want including becoming an angel investor and pursuing fishing all of your spare time. My 98 cents.

No offense but the more I read, the more it dawns on me that you don't know what you're talking about. Are you even in trading?

If you knew anything about what's going on in the trading and regulatory landscape right now, you would know that the days of seven-figure bonuses in prop or sellside trading are virtually gone. Moreover, I laughed when you wrote that exotics traders join central banks or become senators. I'm a politics junkie, and there's not a single U.S. Senator who was a former trader (maybe you meant they could do it in the future?) As for central banks, you're not getting in unless you have masters/Phd in econ/finance; I suppose it's possible for an exotics trader to make that move, but it is very rare.

I'm not saying that there aren't super successful traders who love their jobs. I just think you're misinformed and grossly exaggerate how "good" traders have it and how well the top guys are doing.

In terms of the breadth of exit opportunities, trading is dwarfed by top banking, strategy consulting, private equity, long-short hedge funds, investment management, venture capital, tech.

 

[gmst]

Quote from torque:

If you knew anything about what's going on in the trading and regulatory landscape right now, you would know that the days of seven-figure bonuses in prop or sellside trading are virtually gone. Moreover, I laughed when you wrote that exotics traders join central banks or become senators. I'm a politics junkie, and there's not a single U.S. Senator who was a former trader (maybe you meant they could do it in the future?) As for central banks, you're not getting in unless you have masters/Phd in econ/finance; I suppose it's possible for an exotics trader to make that move, but it is very rare.

A little mis-communication here. When I say these guys can join central banks, I didn't want to refer to exotic traders. I was rather writing from the perspective of people in various departments of banks. I had these kind of people in mind like Robert Rubin etc.

7 figures in sell-side days are gone if you only consider cash bonus. However, if you do take equity, 7 figures still exist. Also, Asia is a very different story these days than US.

See, I don't know what role you are in currently? Maybe you are in the markets data department in drw and so are not that optimistic about your future. Perfectly fine to go and do an MBA. However, if you are trading equity options or doing hft in fx, then an MBA does not make sense. More you write, more it becomes clear that you are well-set on leaving your current job and doing an MBA. Well, if you have already taken the decision, there is not much to discuss, isn't it!!

I just wanted to share my perspective, since I very well remember the days when my thoughts were a mirror image of yours. All the best.

 

[doublet83]

Can you get into a good investment management firm straight out of a top mba program? Don't the good buy-side shops hire fairly strictly from banking tracks? I've worked at mediocre investment management firms and the experience leaves much to be desired. Unfortunately the ratio of mediocre firms to good firms is very high.

I suppose sell side research is an option after you graduate, and that's something I've considered myself.

 

[torque]

Quote from gmst:

A little mis-communication here. When I say these guys can join central banks, I didn't want to refer to exotic traders. I was rather writing from the perspective of people in various departments of banks. I had these kind of people in mind like Robert Rubin etc.

7 figures in sell-side days are gone if you only consider cash bonus. However, if you do take equity, 7 figures still exist. Also, Asia is a very different story these days than US.

See, I don't know what role you are in currently? Maybe you are in the markets data department in drw and so are not that optimistic about your future. Perfectly fine to go and do an MBA. However, if you are trading equity options or doing hft in fx, then an MBA does not make sense. More you write, more it becomes clear that you are well-set on leaving your current job and doing an MBA. Well, if you have already taken the decision, there is not much to discuss, isn't it!!

I just wanted to share my perspective, since I very well remember the days when my thoughts were a mirror image of yours. All the best.

Ok, fair enough. Miscommunication there.

For what it's worth, I'm a trader at my firm, doing market making and arb on a variety of spot and futures products.

Why do you think an MBA does not make sense for equity options or hft fx traders? The profit margins have diminished considerably in prop trading, across asset classes. Now this could change if volume and vol come back, but as of now, the future of this industry is bleak. I personally know people at all the top prop shopes here in Chicago, and they all feel the same way and are looking for an exit.

 

[newwurldmn]

Quote from doublet83:

Can you get into a good investment management firm straight out of a top mba program?

Yes.

Citadel, Bridgewater, KKR, Blackstone, Blackrock, Capital Group, PIMCO, etc. will hire out of top MBA programs. They come in as associate level candidates.

Whatever anyone says about the quality of MBA's themselves; an MBA from a top school opens virtually all doors in the corporate world.

The only door an corporate door an MBA doesn't help is for esoteric trading roles (exotics, quant, hft, etc.). These are really engineering type jobs anyway.

Long/short, Macro, Long only, and similar desks will hire MBA's.