to the atheists on the board

Many adopt belief systems without thought. Some others study first then choose a belief system for a variety of reasons.

That is why generalizations often fail in a specific instance.

Even fewer do sufficient introspective and philosophical research into the nature of the mind to discover what belief systems are.

Man simply cannot survive without belief systems.

As simple a thing as breathing requires a belief that our breathing aparatus is functional. Everything that takes us from the present into the next moment is on the basis of a belief system, for if we believed that we would experience pain or harm by moving to the next breath or the next step we would be paralyzed. So we believe the brakes on the car will work, that what we are eating is not poison, etc.

All actions are based on a belief, not a knowledge of the next moment. The brakes could fail, the food could be poison, and the air could be full of a deadly gas.

What the atheists are attempting to do is claim that faith in God is an irrational belief, but there is no evidence that faith in God is irrational.

Rationality is based on behavior and thinking, and belief in God does not produce behavior or thinking deemed irrational by any psychological standard.

Quote from Turok:

>You claim to know, I challenge you to prove you know
>who was the very first man who came to believe in God,
>and how he came to that belief.

>I think if you bring forth your "knowledge" that I can
>effectively reduce it to speculation and conjecture...i.e.
>opinion.

That is one thing I've noticed about people in general (it's not limited to theists in any way) -- they really don't want to go back and learn where a lot of what they believe in came from and what it is based on. It must be frightening as it chances minimizing much of what they stand for.

This was one of the roots of what became my "belief system" many years ago -- I threw out all that I had *been taught* and relied only on what I had *learned* for myself. (the difference was startling).

Searching is best accompanied by an open mind -- not a mind full of canned conclusions.

JB
More...
 
ART declares the follies of generalization (with which I agree for the most part)...

>That is why generalizations often fail in
>a specific instance.

And then, generalizes...

>snip<
>belief in God does not produce behavior or thinking
>deemed irrational by any psychological standard.

Ok ART, just one simple question?...do you REALLY believe that statement as written, or it is just a casual generalization that all of us can make from time to time?

If you really believe it then you are truly delusional since it would take me about 3 seconds (no wait, that's too long) to start naming instances of heinous, psychologically irrational crimes committed by believers for their god (and yes, just for you I'll start with the christians).

JB
 
Quote from ARogueTrader:

Rationality is based on behavior and thinking, and belief in God does not produce behavior or thinking deemed irrational by any psychological standard.
More...

Yes, and believing a being whose existence has never been observed much less proven is irrational behavior by definition and yes, therefore, "deemed irrational by any psychological standard."
 
There are exceptions to almost every rule as the rules relate to groups of human beings and their respective mental states and mental conditions.

We can no doubt find atheists in prison who committed crimes but to conclude that all atheists are criminal on the basis of that is not true nor a reasonable conclusion.

If you study psychology, you will find no direct correlation between belief in God and lack of mental health according to the standards of the science of psychology.

In fact, I believe you will find that the majority of mental health professionals recommend and or endorse belief in a higher power as a means to restore sanity for those in a state of poor mental health.

That people with existing mental problems will then take those beliefs to irrational extremes that produce irrational behavior in society is a function of their mental state, not the beliefs in themselves.


Quote from Turok:

ART declares the follies of generalization (with which I agree for the most part)...

>That is why generalizations often fail in
>a specific instance.

And then, generalizes...

>snip<
>belief in God does not produce behavior or thinking
>deemed irrational by any psychological standard.

Ok ART, just one simple question?...do you REALLY believe that statement as written, or it is just a casual generalization that all of us can make from time to time?

If you really believe it then you are truly delusional since it would take me about 3 seconds (no wait, that's too long) to start naming instances of heinous, psychologically irrational crimes committed by believers for their god (and yes, just for you I'll start with the christians).

JB
More...
 
Provide links to the American Society of Psychiatrists, or any other authority with the status of the AMA or equivalent mainstream and leading body in the field of psychology, neuro-psychology, etc. that support your assertion that the majority opinion by these professional organizations is that belief in God by a person is deemed a defective state of mind and reflective of a person suffering from delusion, mental illness, or some other mental disease.

Quote from Sardo_Numspa:

Yes, and believing a being whose existence has never been observed much less proven is irrational behavior by definition and yes, therefore, "deemed irrational by any psychological standard."
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ART:
>We can no doubt find atheists in prison who
>committed crimes but to conclude that all atheists
>are criminal on the basis of that is not true nor a
>reasonable conclusion.

That is correct, however it is a strawman having nothing to do with my challenge of your statement.

You said:
>snip<
>belief in God does not produce behavior or thinking
>deemed irrational by any psychological standard.

I asked if you actually believe that and perhaps you do.

>If you study psychology, you will find no direct
>correlation between belief in God and lack of
>mental health according to the standards of the
>science of psychology.

Another strawman. "Irrational by any psychological standards" does not necessarily equate with "lack of mental health". (as I will show later)

>In fact, I believe you will find that the majority of
>mental health professionals recommend and or endorse
>belief in a higher power as a means to restore sanity for
>those in a state of poor mental health.

Actually, you will find that a majority of mental health professionals *who believe in a higher power* recommend or endorse belief in a higher power as a means to restore sanity for those in a state of poor mental health. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Ok ART, no more strawmen...back to the subject at hand.

You said:
>snip<
>belief in God does not produce behavior or thinking
>deemed irrational by any psychological standard.

And:
>That people with existing mental problems will then
>take those beliefs to irrational extremes that produce
>irrational behavior in society is a function of their mental
>state, not the beliefs in themselves.

ART, you know darn well that I can (and will if I have to) find you case after case where believers have been found by psychological experts to be mentally competent and yet also found by a jury to have committed heinous and psychologically irrational acts for their god.

So, are you still going to defend the blanket statement:
>snip<
>belief in God does not produce behavior or thinking
>deemed irrational by any psychological standard.

...or are you going to concede that it was a generalization that can be proven wrong by example?

JB
 
>Provide links to the American Society of Psychiatrists, or
>any other authority with the status of the AMA or
>equivalent mainstream and leading body in the field of
>psychology, neuro-psychology, etc. that support your
>assertion that the majority opinion by these professional
>organizations is that belief in God by a person is deemed
>a defective state of mind and reflective of a person
>suffering from delusion, mental illness, or some other
>mental disease.


Provide link to a post where I made the assertion you attribute to me and I will.

Just another ART strawman.

JB
 
Here was the statement you made:

If you really believe it then you are truly delusional since it would take me about 3 seconds (no wait, that's too long) to start naming instances of heinous, psychologically irrational crimes committed by believers for their god (and yes, just for you I'll start with the christians).

JB

The statement you make is that some people who commit irrational (as opposed to rational) crimes are believers in God.

I agree that the above is a true statement.

From that we can conclude what?

Can we conclude from that true statement that theism leads to the commission of irrational crimes? Can we conclude it was the theism that was the cause of the behavior or mental state that led to irrational crimes? No in both cases it does not follow that the belief in God was the cause of the mental disturbance that lead to anti-social criminal behavior.

The vast majority of theists do not commit crimes (rational or irrational), so it is not belief in God by itself that produces irrational criminal behavior.

To look a group of people and generalize from the behavior of a few to a conclusion that necessarily holds true for all is a logical fallacy and is not supported by facts in this instance.

Even in this case, there is no proof that it was the belief in God that led to the criminal behavior of the few that did commit irrational crimes. It could have been a chemical imbalance or other factors that clouded the persons judgment on how to act on their belief in God. Many possibilities exist to explain criminal behavior.

If you are stating a conclusion that belief in God by itself leads to irrational or rational crimes, the burden of proof is on you to support that conclusion.

Make a case if you can.

ART, you know darn well that I can (and will if I have to) find you case after case where believers have been found by psychological experts to be mentally competent and yet also found by a jury to have committed heinous and psychologically irrational acts for their god.

Yes, we can find cases that people claim they were acting for their God. Sirhan Sirhan claimed that God told him to kill Bobby Kennedy. As a society we condemned his actions.

In Nazi Germany we found people committing heinous and psychologically irrational acts for their Fuhrer. As a society we condemned their acts.

Who is to blame? The Fuhrer? Or the belief in the Fuhrer? Or the person for commission of heinous and psychologically irrational acts?

I don't think the point you are making has validity as relates to theism being irrational or unreasonable and the cause of irrational behavior.



Quote from Turok:

ART:
>We can no doubt find atheists in prison who
>committed crimes but to conclude that all atheists
>are criminal on the basis of that is not true nor a
>reasonable conclusion.

That is correct, however it is a strawman having nothing to do with my challenge of your statement.

You said:
>snip<
>belief in God does not produce behavior or thinking
>deemed irrational by any psychological standard.

I asked if you actually believe that and perhaps you do.

>If you study psychology, you will find no direct
>correlation between belief in God and lack of
>mental health according to the standards of the
>science of psychology.

Another strawman. "Irrational by any psychological standards" does not necessarily equate with "lack of mental health". (as I will show later)

>In fact, I believe you will find that the majority of
>mental health professionals recommend and or endorse
>belief in a higher power as a means to restore sanity for
>those in a state of poor mental health.

Actually, you will find that a majority of mental health professionals *who believe in a higher power* recommend or endorse belief in a higher power as a means to restore sanity for those in a state of poor mental health. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Ok ART, no more strawmen...back to the subject at hand.

You said:
>snip<
>belief in God does not produce behavior or thinking
>deemed irrational by any psychological standard.

And:
>That people with existing mental problems will then
>take those beliefs to irrational extremes that produce
>irrational behavior in society is a function of their mental
>state, not the beliefs in themselves.

ART, you know darn well that I can (and will if I have to) find you case after case where believers have been found by psychological experts to be mentally competent and yet also found by a jury to have committed heinous and psychologically irrational acts for their god.

So, are you still going to defend the blanket statement:
>snip<
>belief in God does not produce behavior or thinking
>deemed irrational by any psychological standard.

...or are you going to concede that it was a generalization that can be proven wrong by example?

JB
More...
 
Quote from ARogueTrader:

Provide links to the American Society of Psychiatrists, or any other authority with the status of the AMA or equivalent mainstream and leading body in the field of psychology, neuro-psychology, etc. that support your assertion that the majority opinion by these professional organizations is that belief in God by a person is deemed a defective state of mind and reflective of a person suffering from delusion, mental illness, or some other mental disease.
More...

Why? You'll only say that scientific evidence is irrelevant when it comes to faith. What's the point, ART? Your irrationality is like a brick wall. You're completely opaque to reason.
 
Quote from ARogueTrader:

Provide links to the American Society of Psychiatrists, or any other authority with the status of the AMA or equivalent mainstream and leading body in the field of psychology, neuro-psychology, etc. that support your assertion that the majority opinion by these professional organizations is that belief in God by a person is deemed a defective state of mind and reflective of a person suffering from delusion, mental illness, or some other mental disease.
More...

BTW, that's called an Appeal to Authority. You only believe what people in a perceived position in authority believe. That's your weakness. You don't know how to believe the facts by themselves.
 
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