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to the atheists on the board
- Thread starter kungfoofighting
- Start date
Quote from ARogueTrader:
I apply faith where physical senses and relativistic logic are not going to be effective.
I fully support relativistic logical thought, use of the senses, science, etc. to explore the physical world and the field of realtivity. Right tool for the right job.
However, when it comes to the concept of the field of the Absoute, i.e. God, I apply faith.
But that presupposes a) that such a field exists, and b) faith is the correct way to judge the truth or falsity of suppositions about that field. You have a further problem c) why faith should be applied to god, and not to anything else (you say because the concept of god has certain qualities, without explaining why those qualities should lead to a different judgement of existence relative to other qualities).
Being Absolute in concept doesn't imply relative existence. It implies Absolute existence.
Again, it is a personal choice to believe that what we see with limited physical senses and what we think on the relativistic basis of our limited intellect is all that there is, or we can believe there is something Absolute.
If someone decides that ultimate reality is relativistic before they go looking for it, what are the chances they would discover an Absolute reality with such a closed mind along the way?
I believe in the Absolute and seek it via faith, you may choose to believe that all that exists is within your sensory perception and relativistic logic and that is your field of dreams.
You practice your faith, I practice mine.
Again, it is a personal choice to believe that what we see with limited physical senses and what we think on the relativistic basis of our limited intellect is all that there is, or we can believe there is something Absolute.
If someone decides that ultimate reality is relativistic before they go looking for it, what are the chances they would discover an Absolute reality with such a closed mind along the way?
I believe in the Absolute and seek it via faith, you may choose to believe that all that exists is within your sensory perception and relativistic logic and that is your field of dreams.
You practice your faith, I practice mine.
Quote from Cutten:
But again, being absolute in concept does not imply existence. The possible existence of God is prior to and independent of our concept of him, so arguments from definition carry no weight.
Of course the presupposition is the such a field exists. Columbus pre-supposed the world was not flat before his journey.
That is why they call seekers of God who are following a path to be on a spiritual journey.
I accept that faith is the tool by which I will come to know God.
The last part of your comments are not clear at all to me.
Faith is not required to be applied to know this world in general in my opinion, as that which is within the scope of the physical senses and relativistic logic is their field of expertise.
That is why they call seekers of God who are following a path to be on a spiritual journey.
I accept that faith is the tool by which I will come to know God.
The last part of your comments are not clear at all to me.
Faith is not required to be applied to know this world in general in my opinion, as that which is within the scope of the physical senses and relativistic logic is their field of expertise.
Quote from Cutten:
But that presupposes a) that such a field exists, and b) faith is the correct way to judge the truth or falsity of suppositions about that field. You have a further problem c) why faith should be applied to god, and not to anything else (you say because the concept of god has certain qualities, without explaining why those qualities should lead to a different judgement of existence relative to other qualities).
Columbus did not presuppose anything.Quote from ARogueTrader:
Of course the presupposition is the such a field exists. Columbus pre-supposed the world was not flat before his journey.
That is why they call seekers of God who are following a path to be on a spiritual journey.
I accept that faith is the tool by which I will come to know God.
The last part of your comments are not clear at all to me.
Faith is not required to be applied to know this world in general in my opinion, as that which is within the scope of the physical senses and relativistic logic is their field of expertise.
There was boat loads of scientific information, supportable evidence and knowledge which he applied to the confirmation of his proposal.
He scientifically predicted the world was not flat
The only ones who wanted to the world to remain flat was the church, because of their dogma and interpretation of the Bibble.
The problem with faith alone is that it has no appreciable measure.
One faith has the same inutility as the next.
Faith in a 'spiritual journey into Fairy and Hob-Goblin land' is as much value as a faith in a 'spiritual journey into God Land'
An absolute small, green, humanoid, God is absolute.Quote from ARogueTrader:
If you choose to believe in God as a small, green, humanoid, then that is your belief system of God.
I seek something absolute myself.
Every bit as abolute as anything of yours which is absolute.
My invisible friend Gilbert is absolute +1
Your faith it seems has let you down.
It is flawed and wanting, as Gilbert IS absolute, where your God always remains one short of Gilbert's absolute.
How has my faith let me down?
Gilbert may be absolute, does Gilbert also have the qualtities of being:
The Supreme Being, Infinite, Omniscient, Self Complacent, Eternal, All Blissful, Infinitely Kind and Gracious?
If so, you are very lucky to have Gilbert in your life.
Gilbert may be absolute, does Gilbert also have the qualtities of being:
The Supreme Being, Infinite, Omniscient, Self Complacent, Eternal, All Blissful, Infinitely Kind and Gracious?
If so, you are very lucky to have Gilbert in your life.
Quote from stu:
An absolute small, green, humanoid, God is absolute.
Every bit as abolute as anything of yours which is absolute.
My invisible friend Gilbert is absolute +1
Your faith it seems has let you down.
It is flawed and wanting, as Gilbert IS absolute, where your God always remains one short of Gilbert's absolute.
You know what Columbus thought? You know for a fact that Columbus did not presuppose anything? His "science" was hard and fast with no presuppositions?
Faith has appreciable measure to the faithful, and none to those without it.
Faith has appreciable measure to the faithful, and none to those without it.
Quote from stu:
Columbus did not presuppose anything.
There was boat loads of scientific information, supportable evidence and knowledge which he applied to the confirmation of his proposal.
He scientifically predicted the world was not flat
The only ones who wanted to the world to remain flat was the church, because of their dogma and interpretation of the Bibble.
The problem with faith alone is that it has no appreciable measure.
One faith has the same inutility as the next.
Faith in a 'spiritual journey into Fairy and Hob-Goblin land' is as much value as a faith in a 'spiritual journey into God Land'
Quote from ARogueTrader:
You know what Columbus thought? You know for a fact that Columbus did not presuppose anything? His "science" was hard and fast with no presuppositions?
Faith has appreciable measure to the faithful, and none to those without it.
Ah, but he did use the science and techology of his time, sailing ships, navigation (as it was), even food technologies to a degree (dried foods). His faith may have sustained in him difficult times but it would not have allowed him to make the voyage if he did not use the science of the day. Are you claiming that he could have swam to the New World on his faith alone?
No, but without faith he would not have made the voyage. Faith was an essential component.
I don't dismiss the value of science, as it relates to what exists within its boundaries, however the application of it often also requires faith. I don't see a conflict between science and faith any more than I see a conflict between laughter and sorrow. Both are part of man's experience, as heart and mind are both a part of the totality of man's state of being. I prefer a balanced approach to life, one that includes science, philosophy, and faith in God.
Columbus may have been a scientist, but he was also a man of faith. The Knights of Columbus certainly view Columbus as a man of faith to be emulated.
Those who have not undertaken a spiritual journey, or failed in their own journey often can do little but attempt to attack the person who is faithful. Sour grapes for many failed theists. Some even try to ridcule the faithful, as if that practice of ridcule is either scientific or logical.
The instances of people who have found what they are looking for with faith in God, and then give up that practice to look for something greater in the realm of science are few and far between....if at all.
I don't dismiss the value of science, as it relates to what exists within its boundaries, however the application of it often also requires faith. I don't see a conflict between science and faith any more than I see a conflict between laughter and sorrow. Both are part of man's experience, as heart and mind are both a part of the totality of man's state of being. I prefer a balanced approach to life, one that includes science, philosophy, and faith in God.
Columbus may have been a scientist, but he was also a man of faith. The Knights of Columbus certainly view Columbus as a man of faith to be emulated.
Those who have not undertaken a spiritual journey, or failed in their own journey often can do little but attempt to attack the person who is faithful. Sour grapes for many failed theists. Some even try to ridcule the faithful, as if that practice of ridcule is either scientific or logical.
The instances of people who have found what they are looking for with faith in God, and then give up that practice to look for something greater in the realm of science are few and far between....if at all.
Quote from Sardo_Numspa:
Ah, but he did use the science and techology of his time, sailing ships, navigation (as it was), even food technologies to a degree (dried foods). His faith may have sustained in him difficult times but it would not have allowed him to make the voyage if he did not use the science of the day. Are you claiming that he could have swam to the New World on his faith alone?