to conservatives -is Bush the worst ever?

<i>Because that's part of their mentality to blame the US, Israel, the Western World, the Crusaders... If we did not exist they would have to invent us as their lives, their societies suck and they need someone to blame.</i>

Let's test your theory. Suppose there is a country full of Muslims which wasn't ever fucked over by the United States or antagonized by the West. Maybe because it doesn't have any oil, and doesn't border Israel, and so we never had any interest in it and mostly left it alone. This country, you suggest, would still be a shithole and would invent reasons to hate the West and install crazy theocratic regimes. Why? Because it's full of Muslims and everyone knows that Muslims are ungrateful, lazy bastards.

Let's think. Does that sound like any country you know of? Hmm, what about Turkey? 72 million Muslims, not a drop of oil. Stayed out of WWII. A member of NATO since 1952. A secular democracy since 1923. In negotiations to join the EU. Stricter separation of church and state than most of Western Europe. Economically vibrant and growing fast. Sounds to me like your theory needs some work.

Martin
 
Quote from Sparohok:

<i>Because that's part of their mentality to blame the US, Israel, the Western World, the Crusaders... If we did not exist they would have to invent us as their lives, their societies suck and they need someone to blame.</i>

Let's test your theory. Suppose there is a country full of Muslims which wasn't ever fucked over by the United States or antagonized by the West. Maybe because it doesn't have any oil, and doesn't border Israel, and so we never had any interest in it and mostly left it alone. This country, you suggest, would still be a shithole and would invent reasons to hate the West and install crazy theocratic regimes. Why? Because it's full of Muslims and everyone knows that Muslims are ungrateful, lazy bastards.

Let's think. Does that sound like any country you know of? Hmm, what about Turkey? 72 million Muslims, not a drop of oil. Stayed out of WWII. A member of NATO since 1952. A secular democracy since 1923. In negotiations to join the EU. Stricter separation of church and state than most of Western Europe. Economically vibrant and growing fast. Sounds to me like your theory needs some work.

Martin
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Nice try Martin, everyone knows that Turkey is an exception. How about the rest of the muslim world though, we have not messed with every arab/muslim country on the planet, have we, we have never been at war, we have never occupied Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, Morocco, Algeria, Sudan, Mauritania...So why do you think they hate us?

Or let's try another theory. What has Israel ever done to Iran? Israel has never been at war with Iran, they don't have and have never had territorial disputes, Israel did not meddle in Iranian revolutions and other affairs. So how do you explain the Iranian hostility towards Israel?

PS Sorry but your attitude that if they are mad it must be our fault is absurd. Their countries, their lives suck, they are always mad and they they have only themselves and theirmedieval mentality to blame. And you're right, the Turks are OK.
 
Jordan and Egypt don't hate us at all. I've travelled extensively in Egypt, talked with many Egyptians, stayed in their homes, and felt nothing but welcome. Jordan is even more friendly to Americans from what I've heard. These are not quite as good examples as Turkey because they are not as democratic nor as successful, but they definitely fall in the same category. Not coincidentally, they don't have any oil either. Turkey is not an exception, it is part of a very consistent pattern.

Are you seriously trying to claim that there is no correlation whatsoever between the countries in the Middle East that we've fucked with and the ones that are hostile to us? That seems to fly in the face of human nature, doesn't it?

Martin
 
Quote from Sparohok:

Jordan and Egypt don't hate us at all. I've travelled extensively in Egypt, talked with many Egyptians
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Martin, your personal anecdotes are not convincing, public opinion polls in those countries demonstrate the opposite:
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So please do let me know when we fucked with Jordan, Turkey, Egypt and Indonesia and why you think they hate us. Nigeria on the other side is an oil-rich country and they don't seem to have any problem with us. I am afraid your correlation is not working all that well, is it? And you're yet to explain why a reasonable and friendly (according to you) country like Iran is so hostile to Israel with which it has never had any kinds of border disputes or wars.
 
30% favorable?!? Dude, that's love at first sight. Even the friggin' Canadians probably don't have a 30% favorable opinion of the US! I hate to break it to you but that list only has US allies on it.

You find some numbers for Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, then tell me that 30% favorable is a bad thing. The Palestinians had a 1% favorable rating of the US in 2003. That low single digit range is where you start talking real "Death to America" type hatred.

http://www.brook.edu/press/review/summer2003/telhami.htm
http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/185.pdf

Martin
 
I would like some information on how the US screwed middle eastern muslims over.

Please compare and contrast what we have done to them vs. what their leaders have done for them in light of the vast wealth their leaders should be sharing.

I am sure you will say we have helped the house of saad stay in power - discuss the alternative.

Discuss how the saudi leaders have spread hatred in their mosques world wide.

I would seriously like to know how culpable we are.


It seems to me the leaders in the middle east have stolen vast wealth from their people and blamed the West for the poverty.
 
Quote from jem:
It seems to me the leaders in the middle east have stolen vast wealth from their people and blamed the West for the poverty.
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Of course they have!! I couldn't agree more. Do you see me holding hands with King Saud? Apologizing for Khomeini? Please.

All I'm saying is that the worst leaders in the world come to power by grasping at legitimate grievances.

Who is to blame? First, these terrible leaders. Second, the credulous public that rallies behind these terrible leaders. THIRD, the foriegn powers that created the legitimate grievances to begin with. And a distant FOURTH, the foriegn powers who stand by and wring their hands at the rise of these terrible leaders.

There's a strong analogy between Iran and Hitler's Germany. We both agree that Hitler & Khomeni are burning in Hell, and that their respective countries bear great culpability for allowing these men to take power. But you are blaming Carter for Khomeni, and presumably you would blame Chamberlain for Hitler.

I would say that both Carter and Chamberlain were all but powerless in the face of public movements that had already gained strong momentum. If we are to look inward, with the benefit of hindsight, and ask ourselves what mistakes we made, the greatest ones came much earlier. The Hitler's Germany was sparked in Versailles in 1919, and the Iranian Revolution was sparked in Tehran in 1953. You will find precious few historians who would disagree on either point.

Incidentally, I resent your hypocritical attempt to paint me as a blame-America-first-er. This discussion started with you and others blaming Carter for the Iranian Revolution. I'm just saying you got the wrong guy.

Martin
 
I started this accusing bush of possibly being the worst president ever. I think it was AAA who blamed him for the rise of Islam wackos. (not that I am arguing with him).

I realize my questions seemed loaded but my primary intent was to solicit the information.
 
Quote from Sparohok:

30% favorable?!? Dude, that's love at first sight.
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LOL. Martin, this is absolutely excellent. You start with a claim that they only hate us when we fuck with them. Then you come up with a couple of personal anecdotes intended to prove that they actually love us over there. And now you declare that 30% is "love at first sight". (of course it's not 30% either, it's 12-15% in Jordan and Turkey).

Of course you're yet to come up with a single example of how we "fucked with" Egypt or Jordan or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or most other muslim countries where 70-90% of the population hate our guts, you're yet to explain why "peace-loving" Iran is so hostile to Israel if Israel has never fucked with Iran.

Please Martin, don't let facts get in the way of your predetermined beliefs that whatever happens in the world must be our fault and if anyone anywhere in the world hates us - they are always right and we are always wrong.
 
dddooo, you're not even trying to have a reasonable discussion here. Let me point out a few of the B.S. tactics you're using:

"Unfavorable impression" is a LOOOONG way from "hating our guts" yet you use them as synonyms. You must have noticed that Spain has a 23% favorable rating, do they "hate our guts" too?

I never claimed nor implied in any way that Iran is "peace-loving." In fact I made a direct analogy between Khomeini's Iran and Hitler's Germany. Yet you put those words in quotes as if I said them.

Israel-Iranian relations is a red herring. It has nothing to do with this discussion, and it has a whole complex history of its own. You're using it as a distraction.

And finally you ascribe to me the "predetermined beliefs that whatever happens in the world must be our fault" which is a wildly irresponsible, hostile, and obviously incorrect claim.

Why are you being such a dick? I didn't do anything to you. If you want to have a reasonable discussions like reasonable human beings, please do so. Otherwise, I'm not going to have anything to do with you.

Martin
 
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