TL's & Wyckoff

[fortydraws]

My god. People can't even start a journal anymore without dbphoenix jumping in and acting like he is the end all expert on Wyckoff. Why don't you just let people trade the way they want to? Leave people alone.

Many are here starting journals as a result of their finding DbPhoenix's threads here at ET and elsewhere. If you were to read one of his threads, you'd know that DbPhoenix has made something of a standing offer that if you want to learn to trade by price, and if you start a journal, he will help guide you. As the OP mentions Wyckoff in the title of his journal, then a reasonable assumption would be that he is wanting to learn to trade by price.

Where do all these trolls come from? The trading message board world is chock full of miserable cranky people.

And DbPhoenix, I saw your post in Gabe's CL journal. Sorry I misrepresented your position on scaling out with multiple contracts. I misinterpreted and misunderstood a post of yours in the past. In my defense, I'm not very smart.

 

[dbphoenix]

In my defense, I'm not very smart.

HA! Yeah, right. You learned how to trade in six months.

As for this journal, how Frank trades is entirely up to him and it's really none of my business except for the reference to Wyckoff. I've watched people apply Wyckoff incorrectly for years, then complain that "it doesn't work", even though they had never applied W correctly in the first place, much less read his course. Aside from being unfair to Wyckoff, these efforts divert traders from what would otherwise be that which enables them to succeed.

There are no creeks, there is no ice, there are no springs, there is no law of cause and effect nor of effort and result. And all of Wyckoff's work is free, thanks to the Library of Congress. So if Frank wants to follow Evans, great. That's entirely up to him. Will that help him turn the corner? I've never known anyone who became a self-supporting trader by doing so, and I've been at this for 15 years. But Frank might be the exception. If so, more power to him.

As I said in post #5 above, if Frank wants to begin again with Wyckoff, I'll be happy to help him through it. If he doesn't, or can't, that's fine. This sort of thing takes a lot of time. Magna I'm sure will be more than happy to delete all these posts and change the title of the journal if Frank asks him to do so.

 

[GiantDog]

Magna I'm sure will be more than happy to delete all these posts and change the title of the journal if Frank asks him to do so.

The thread starter mentioned above that he wouldn't mind having your input. Nice to see there is a standing offer from you to help out people here with their trading. I wasn't aware of that. Now you have a job to do. No need to rename the thread.

What made me post was when you asked the thread starter why he "invoked" Wyckoff like it was a terrible thing to do. I just didn't get that part of your post.

 

[GiantDog]

Many are here starting journals as a result of their finding DbPhoenix's threads here at ET and elsewhere. If you were to read one of his threads, you'd know that DbPhoenix has made something of a standing offer that if you want to learn to trade by price, and if you start a journal, he will help guide you. As the OP mentions Wyckoff in the title of his journal, then a reasonable assumption would be that he is wanting to learn to trade by price.

Where do all these trolls come from? The trading message board world is chock full of miserable cranky people.

And DbPhoenix, I saw your post in Gabe's CL journal. Sorry I misrepresented your position on scaling out with multiple contracts. I misinterpreted and misunderstood a post of yours in the past. In my defense, I'm not very smart.

People calling others miserable and cranky are usually just that themselves.

 

[dbphoenix]

Now that the trolling is done, I'll point out for anyone else who's interested that all of this is a result of a conversation in chat, though I imagine Frank was considering doing this before it ever came up. I did not know, however, that Frank was going to trade according to his understanding of Wyckoff, which, as it turns out, is actually his understanding of Evans' interpretation of Wyckoff. Whether or not this has anything to do with his confusion remains to be seen. I am not a fan of the Woodland Adventures approach of Robert Evans. Wyckoff, however, is responsible for whatever success I've enjoyed over the past fifteen years. And if Frank wants to go down that road, I will, as I said, help him with it.

However, since he has not gone further with this, he may be rattled by the prospect of having to abandon most if not all of what he thinks he knows about Wyckoff, which, as it turns out, may be very little. This would involve not only having to learn the new but to unlearn the old. This may not be what he signed up for.

If Frank therefore decides to take yet another road, he will have to post his plan. Otherwise there is nothing I can do since I have no idea why he took the trades he did in his first post, and when those who are interested in helping rather than trolling do not receive enough information, they tend to interpret what they see through the filters of their own perceptions and experiences. Thus their advice often has nothing whatsoever to do with the OP's goals and objectives.

So, Frank, it's up to you. If you want to learn the Wyckoff approach, you may have a long and difficult road ahead of you, particularly since you've been at this for over three years. Depends on how willing you are to start over. If, on the other hand, you'd rather alter what you're doing so that you can make a living at it, you'll have to post your plan. If you don't want to do either, then all I can do is wish you the best of luck. Perhaps some of the random suggestions you'll inevitably receive will be close enough to the target to do you some good.

 

[frank8800]

I'll post my plan later today and we can take it from there.

 

[frank8800]

Here are the Cliff Notes version of my plan. Large parts are still in the R & D phase, but the skeleton of the plan is in tact.

I have a handful of entry techniques that I apply at structural parts of the chart, depending on market conditions as I perceive them on the 5 min chart.

Pre-market:

• Note/mark Y-HOD and Y-LOD on the chart with a green dot-dash line
• Note/mark any other nearby day's highs and lows with a green dot-dash line
• Note/mark any significant pivots from the 60 min chart with an orange dashed line
• Note/mark any 60 min trend lines with a red dash line
• Note where the market open will be in relation to yesterday. Make a game plan of possible scenarios for testing key areas
• Note/mark any OVN channels or trends with a green dash line

This defines some boundary areas where I will look to take break out pull back (BOPB) or break out failure (BOF) trades as the market approaches them. This part is still in R & D.

During the market, note the market condition. It will be in a strong trend, trend channel, horizontal channel, or consolidating. Tactics and entries are being developed for each market condition, except consolidation. Consolidation is defined as price contraction (symmetric triangle) or a narrow (under 30 tick or so) horizontal range.

Everything except the trend channel condition is in R & D.

Attempt to draw trend channel lines on the 5 min chart. I'll discuss an ascending channel here. As soon as a low, high, and higher low are put in, I draw a channel. Sometimes the channel needs to be tweaked, since price action isn't always clean. The swings need to be meaningful.

Trade Locations are bottom of the channel, top of the channel, mid line (with caution):
Bottom of the Channel
Only longs can be taken in the bottom half on the channel, the closer to the TL the better.

As price pulls back towards the bottom of the ascending trend line, I look at the 1 min chart, checking for an entry. As price descends, I draw a descending trend line. There are 5 entry techniques that I watch for, starting with the most aggressive:

1. Probe - downward momentum pauses, get at least 2 overlapping small bars. The ideal setup is when price probes lower on much lighter volume, doesn't find any, and closes with a tail. Will also enter in a WT IB
2. Rejection - Price continues lower, then is rejected on higher volume, leaving a several tick tail
3. Strong Reversal - Price breaks the TL with a strong, well formed green bar on higher volume
4. Retrace - Price breaks the TL and retraces and closes strong, or if price breaks the TL and drifts sideways, wait for a well formed WT bar.
5. 123 - Look for a 123 second entry pattern

Entries are buy stops placed 1 tick above the signal bar. Stops are 10 ticks (Note, I recognize the value of a structural stop, and if a signal bar is large, I will attempt to enter on a limit order 10 ticks above the pivot low. If the pivot low is less than 15 ticks away, I just enter on a stop)

Trade Management:
15 tick hard target, but will go for a structural target if one is within the channel. (Gathering stats on targeting the opposite side of the channel)

Hold the trade for at least 2 minutes. Tighten stop to 7 ticks. Move stop to BE +1 after 10 MFE. If there is a pivot nearby, watch how price behaves. If a level is quickly rejected with a large wick on higher volume, move stop to BE+1 or higher immediately. I have gathered stats on managing the trade using a 1 min TL and using 1 min pivots and don't like either one.

Top of the channel
Shorts can only be taken at or above the top of the channel. Unless there is climactic action, price must have made or is in the process of making 3 pushes up. Price must have 1 bar on the 1 min chart with stopping volume, with subsequent bars displaying multiple signs of diminishing momentum, such as overlapping bars, shrinking bars, very light volume bars, price/volume divergence, and significant wicks with identical/nearly identical tops.

Entries are with the probe and rejection method only.

Middle of the channel
Longs or shorts can be taken in the middle of the channel under the following conditions:

• Longs - must be at least 20 ticks to the top of the channel, cannot be part of a 3rd push, cannot be a late entry from the bottom of the channel
• Shorts - A lower high must have just occurred and the up leg is showing signs of weakness where a HH will not be made

It is usually best not to trade the middle of the channel

If price forms another channel in the opposite direction, this indicates consolidation and no trades are taken until price decides which channel it's going to honor, if any.

 

[frank8800]

Only 1 trade today in CL. Missed one in CL and one in NQ because I was distracted.

Pre-market in CL had a very nice mature channel in place, but it was right before the pit open and there was a key level that I felt would be tested at the open. Consequently I had BOPB long entry blinders on and didn't take the perfect short.

Trade #1 short 97.12 - Price stalled at the TL and offered a probe entry. Took it for 15 ticks, noted that this traveled all the way down past the channel line.

Price bounced off an hourly level with stopping volume after breaking the channel bottom on the 3rd push. This was a perfect long according to my plan, but didn't take it because I was distracted.

Saw price approach the top of the channel again, but had a long bias since price broke through the bottom. I was looking for price to break the top also. The short entry was there on the 1 min.

I've included the NQ charts with the trade I missed.

 

[dbphoenix]

Here are the Cliff Notes version of my plan. Large parts are still in the R & D phase, but the skeleton of the plan is in tact.

...clip...

If price forms another channel in the opposite direction, this indicates consolidation and no trades are taken until price decides which channel it's going to honor, if any.

Do you want to pursue this from a Wyckoff viewpoint or would you prefer to walk your own path based on your research and testing?

 

[frank8800]

I thought this had elements of Wyckoff in it in the way I'm using volume. No?