Throw your partisanship out the window...

There is very much a danger when you pit one religion against another religion, which is exactly what is happening.

Bush's crusading attitude simply fuels the fire of extremism....

By demonizing the enemy, by polarizing a situation into only 2 possibilities, i.e. you are either us, or you are with the terrorists...there is automatically an extremist situation.

They are bad, and in a black and white world, that would mean that we are automatically good and justified in all that we do.

Very dangerous thinking, which leads to rationalization of actions that are themselves not really good actions....

Quote from Burtakus:

I agree that nationalism mixed with religion is a dangerous thing, hence the problems with the Middle East right now.

Like most other things in life, nationalism and religion in moderation are good things. Too far to either side (ultra or non-existant) and things get out of balance as they are now in the middle east.
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

There is very much a danger when you pit one religion against another religion, which is exactly what is happening.

I agree completely. However this is not a case of one religion against another, it is a conflict of idealogies. The idealogy of fundemental Islam against the idealogy that the western world has developed and embraced.

In the Middle East religion and politics are one in the same. In the west there is a seperation between politics and the church. Over time the seperation has grown and contracted and is different for each state.

In the western world a good many of our values and priniciples have some background in religion but they are not drven solely by religion nor does the western populations rely upon a strict intrepretation of the Bible for making public policy.

Instead the Western world reliees upon a constitution (varying by state) for the basis of their political institutions and a loose interpretation of Religious texts for social institutions. Contrast this with the Middle East where a strict intrepretation of the Koran is the fundemental basis for their political systems and social institutions.

Bush's crusading attitude simply fuels the fire of extremism....

By demonizing the enemy, by polarizing a situation into only 2 possibilities, i.e. you are either us, or you are with the terrorists...there is automatically an extremist situation.

They are bad, and in a black and white world, that would mean that we are automatically good and justified in all that we do.

Very dangerous thinking, which leads to rationalization of actions that are themselves not really good actions....


If anything Bush is painting a rosier picture than perhaps he should. The European populations and a good part of the US population has become too comfortable and pussified and therfore unwiling to see that this truly is a war of idealogies. Fundemental Islam is not compatible with the moral and value systems of the western world. Just like Christianity, if practiced in the manner and with the conventions in the Old Testament, would not be compatible with the current Western moral and value systems.

The far lefts blind hatred for Bush prevents many of them from seeing the true nature of the dissagreement. One way or another we are going to face this clash of civilizations. Whether it be now, as we are doing althorugh not on a large enough scale, or in 10-20 years will determine how hard the West will have to fight for the continuation of its idealogy. Even if we stopped needing Middle Eastern oil (a big reason for the push for democratic stability in the Middle East) we would only delay the inevitable.
 
Yes, yes, we agree it is a clash of civilzations, but that is why we need always to act like the civilized and secularly driven...which we don't.

We cannot evaluate our actions as good, just because we are not as bad as they are.....



Quote from Burtakus:

 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

There is very much a danger when you pit one religion against another religion, which is exactly what is happening.

Bush's crusading attitude simply fuels the fire of extremism....

By demonizing the enemy, by polarizing a situation into only 2 possibilities, i.e. you are either us, or you are with the terrorists...there is automatically an extremist situation.

They are bad, and in a black and white world, that would mean that we are automatically good and justified in all that we do.

Very dangerous thinking, which leads to rationalization of actions that are themselves not really good actions....

How do we translate this idea pre 9/11? I would say those actions were extreme, and came before the war on terrorism. You say Bush is fueling the fire, but it has already been burning out of control.

Many people are adding fuel to the fire, and it did not begin with this president. The Middle East's anger with the West mainly stems from our support of Israel. As long as Israel is our ally, the Middle East will continue to hate us. So what do we do at this point? We are not going to turn our backs on the Israelis. They have proven to be a greater friend to the U.S. than any other country in that region.
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Yes, yes, we agree it is a clash of civilzations, but that is why we need always to act like the civilized and secularly driven...which we don't.

We cannot evaluate our actions as good, just because we are not as bad as they are.....

How do you reason with someone who has no desire to reason with you?

How do you reason with a person who is willing to sacrifice his/her life for their religion?

How do you reason with an idealogy that sees yours as an abomination to be destroyed?

How do you reason with someone who knows no reason.

How do you reason with someone who would kil you for not following their ideaalogy?

How do you reason with somone calling for a sentence of death for a cartoon?
 
Quote from sulong:

Thats about the phoniest piece of writing I've seen since the iraq fiasco started.

Perhaps you mean "good" as in a "good piece of fiction"?

No, I mean good as in a "good, honest read".
 
You must have never had to reason with women or children.....

Quote from Burtakus:

How do you reason with someone who has no desire to reason with you?

How do you reason with a person who is willing to sacrifice his/her life for their religion?

How do you reason with an idealogy that sees yours as an abomination to be destroyed?

How do you reason with someone who knows no reason.

How do you reason with someone who would kil you for not following their ideaalogy?

How do you reason with somone calling for a sentence of death for a cartoon?
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

You must have never had to reason with women or children.....

You question is totally irrelevant since neither me, my spouse or my children have any desire or inclination to kill, or inflict pain upon the other over our idealogical differences.

Is this the best you can come up with regarding how to answer any of the questions I posed?
 
Looks the analogy went over your head.

Swoooosh.....

Quote from Burtakus:

You question is totally irrelevant since neither me, my spouse or my children have any desire or inclination to kill, or inflict pain upon the other over our idealogical differences.

Is this the best you can come up with regarding how to answer any of the questions I posed?
 
Quote from Ivanovich:

No, I mean good as in a "good, honest read".

I see.
I think the thing is is that I'm reading it as if I'm looking over the shoulder of the author,( think detached observer) whereas you seem to be reading the same thing as an entertained reader. ( think participant)
 
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