this thread has the potential to change your life

praise or blame this man, for, since his actions are not
regularly connected with his motives, reinforcing or
inhibiting certain motives will have no effect. More-
over, a man is held responsible for those acts that
reflect his character rather than his casual or unpre-
meditated acts. The latter two, unlike the former, do
not give us insight into the enduring personality and
character traits that form the basis of judgments of
responsibility. Hence, responsibility requires a regular
connection between character and action that leaves
no room for the liberty of indifference.
The freedom we do have is the power to act or not
to act, depending upon our decision. As Hobbes and
Spinoza had pointed out, all human beings possess this
power whenever no external impediments stand in
their way or whenever they are not being constrained
to act in a certain way by an external force. Later
reconciliationists will add certain internal constraints,
e.g., psychological compulsions like kleptomania, to
the list of impediments to liberty.
Finally, freedom is compatible with determinism
because a free act is determined by a decision that
is itself determined by the operative motives. A free
agent, in other words, is one whose acts are caused
by his own volitions rather than external sources. Rec-
onciliationism has been and continues to be a subject
of heated philosophical debates.

The approach of Immanuel Kant to the free will-
determinism problem has reconciliationist aspects in
that he wishes to deny neither. Determinism or the
view that all events are caused certainly holds in the
empirical world, including the psychological domain
of inner experience. Like many of his predecessors,
Kant was not disturbed by the fact that determinism
precludes the liberty of indifference, for the latter
notion is not genuine freedom. Freedom does involve
the absence of external constraints. Hence, if man's will
is free, it is neither subject to external constraints nor
are its decisions determined by chance, i.e., by nothing
real. Freedom, therefore, must be self-determination,
i.e., determination of the will by its own laws. These
laws are not natural laws, i.e., laws governing experi-
enced events, for such external determination is in-
compatible with freedom. Experience tells us that
man's decisions are often governed solely by his desires
and inclinations, and, on that level, he is not free.
Hence, Kant does not agree with those recon-
ciliationists who say that freedom is ordinary determi-
nation by desires. Freedom, therefore, must be a special
type of causality or determination.
As stated above, experience tells us that human
beings are subject to determination by natural law. But
this conclusion is formed from the vantage point of
judging human beings as empirical occurrences in time
or, in Kant's language, as phenomena. Human beings
as noumena, i.e., as things-in-themselves, are outside
time and, hence, free from ordinary determination by
events. Although we do not know human beings as
noumena, they must be noumena to be free. Man as
phenomenon is determined; man as noumenon is free.
Although we cannot be conscious of freedom, we
can be conscious of the moral law and the moral law
implies freedom. Since experience tells us only what
is the case, not what must always be or ought always
to be the case, moral laws must originate in man's
“pure practical reason,” i.e., his reason as transcending
empirical inclinations. Hence a rational being who
acknowledges the moral law must acknowledge that
his will is being determined by his practical reason and
this is freedom. A moral agent must, therefore, con-
ceive of himself as free. Man, however, is both rational
and natural, and he, therefore, has natural inclinations
that may conflict with the dictates of reason. His expe-
rience of morality, therefore, is an experience of obli-
gation to the moral law within his deeper “noumenal”
self.

Freedom, in fact, is the essence of morality. For if
freedom is determination of the will by the laws of
its own reason, then freedom is autonomy, legislation
by the self for the self. And one of Kant's formulations
of the moral law is: act according to the principle that
rational beings are lawgivers to themselves, i.e., as
autonomous. If human beings do not create the laws
they obey, they might be bound to them by an interest
(e.g., God's laws might be obeyed in order to go to
heaven), in which case morality would not be truly
unconditional and necessary.
Many philosophers have rejected as unintelligible
Kant's attempt to preserve both freedom and deter-
minism. Since the rational determination of the will
of man qua noumenon is always in accordance with
morality, it is not clear why men act immorally. Pre-
sumably, they act immorally because they are deter-
mined to do so by their desires and inclinations. But
then only moral acts are free and people ought never
to be blamed, therefore, for their immoral acts. Also,
since every human act is part of the empirical world,
it is determined. Hence, all free acts are determined.
Now, how can man qua noumenon freely determine
the will to perform a specific act that it is necessitated
by antecedent conditions to perform?

Nineteenth-century idealists tended to be libertarians
on the free-will question, and F. H. Bradley is a good
example. (A libertarian identifies man's freedom with
his ability to interpose himself into the causal order
by directly causing a decision or act. The decision or
act is not caused by some state of or occurrence within
the self, e.g., a desire or belief, but by the self directly.
 
Hence, not all occurrences are caused by antecedent
conditions, states, or occurrences. Kant is not exactly
a libertarian because he did not view self-determination
as incompatible with ordinary determination.) Bradley,
like many reconciliationists, rejected the liberty of
indifference. If a man's choice proceeds not at all from
his motives, he is an idiot rather than a responsible
agent. If, on the other hand, determinism requires laws
that enable prediction of a man's character from data
available at birth, determinism too is incompatible with
responsibility. The dilemma is resolved by the concept
of the self. The accountability of an individual for a
past act requires an abiding self, since the man who
did the act must be identical with the man held
accountable. Hence, responsibility requires a concept
of the self as something more than a stream of changing
states and experiences. The determinist, who seeks laws
connecting these various states and experiences, there-
fore ignores the self. The self's creation of its character,
thus, is not completely determined even if a man's acts
can be predicted from a knowledge of his formed
character. Even in the case of a formed character, the
self can always change it and thereby thwart the
determinist.
In the twentieth century, the position of the logical
positivists on the free-will problem, viz., recon-
ciliationism, held sway for a number of years. Moritz
Schlick, for example, argued that the concern about
freedom and responsibility arises from the confused
assumption that laws of nature compel or necessitate
human beings to behave in certain ways, when in fact
these laws just describe what people actually do.
Schlick enumerates the typical reconciliationist posi-
tion: (1) freedom is the absence of compulsion; (2)
freedom actually requires, rather than precludes deter-
minism—freedom as the liberty of indifference is nei-
ther real nor desirable; (3) determinism is compatible
with responsibility because the imputation of respon-
sibility requires only that the man's motives for doing
the action be amenable to change by the introduction
of rewards and punishments.
In the nineteenth century, John Stuart Mill is per-
haps the outstanding representative of reconcil-
iationism. Mill and Schlick agree on fundamental
doctrine. Mill does, however, emphasize the fact that
we can often modify our character if we wish to do
so, a fact whose recognition constitutes the feeling of
moral freedom.
C. A. Campbell has argued for libertarianism against
Schlick's reconciliationism. He concedes that there is
a real difference between causation and compulsion,
but insists nonetheless that freedom is incompatible
with causation. Freedom requires self-causation and,
like Kant, Campbell cites moral experience as the
possible source of the knowledge of self-activity. He
also agrees with Kant that the experience may be
delusive. Unlike Kant, however, Campbell is a genuine
libertarian because he maintains that self-activity is
incompatible with determinism.
The major difference between Bradley and Campbell
has to do with the relation between self and character.
For Bradley, man is free because the creation of char-
acter by the self cannot be understood determinis-
tically. A man is accountable, therefore, for acts that
flow from his formed character. For Campbell self and
character are less intimately connected. Self does not
create character; it “watches” its creation with delight
or dismay. If a man's character disposes him to act
in a way his self views as immoral, the self may produce
a decision in favor of duty. Only when the self over-
rides character or lets character override it is the man
free. Campbell is forced to maintain, therefore, that
a man's moral outlook is not determined in the ordinary
way in which his character traits are determined.
Most contemporary philosophers conceive of free-
dom as the power or ability to choose (or act) differ-
ently from the way a person actually chooses (or acts).
There has been a great deal of debate, therefore, on
the meaning of: “He could have acted otherwise.”
Reconciliationists, like P. H. Nowell-Smith, argue that
the expression can be analyzed hypothetically, e.g.,
“He would have acted differently if he had wanted
(or chosen) to.” This hypothetical statement is consist-
ent with determinism because it does not preclude the
possibility that his actual act was determined by his
actual desires or choices. Campbell and others reject
hypothetical analyses in favor of analyses (categorical)
that make freedom incompatible with determinism.
Many contemporary philosophers reject both recon-
ciliationism and libertarianism and yet claim to find
room for freedom. They reject the reconciliationist
conception of freedom as action caused by desire and
the libertarian conception of self-activity. They view
human behavior as explicable in two radically different
ways. As movement, it is subject to ordinary determi-
nation. But some behavior can be understood as action,
as something done. Although the movement of a man's
arm can be deterministically accounted for in terms
of physiological conditions, the explanation of the fact
that a man raised his arm in terms of his desires, beliefs,
purposes, and intentions, is not a deterministic ex-
planation. In fact, it makes no sense to request a deter-
ministic account of action. The libertarian concedes
to the determinist the possibility that all actions are
determined and then argues that some, the ones caused
by the self, are not. According to A. I. Melden, a
representative of this approach, this concession is a


mistake. The determinist who applies his doctrine to
human action is guilty of conceptual confusion.
Melden's position is strikingly similar to Kant's. For
Kant a man's decision may be conceived of as part
of the phenomenal world, in which case it is deter-
mined; and it may be conceived of as part of the
noumenal world, in which case it is free. For Melden
an arm movement is determined if conceived of as
movement, and free if conceived of as action. And both
agree with the libertarian against the reconciliationist
that man cannot be conceived as just a natural object
(albeit quite special) if we are to view him as free.
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Saint Thomas Aquinas, Basic Writings of Saint Thomas
Aquinas, ed. A. C. Pegis (New York, 1945). Aristotle, The
Nicomachean Ethics, trans. J. A. K. Thomson (Harmonds-
worth, 1955), Book III. Saint Augustine, On Free Will, in
Augustine, Earlier Writings, trans. J. H. S. Burleigh
(Philadelphia, 1955). F. H. Bradley, Ethical Studies (London,
1927), No. 1. C. A. Campbell, In Defence of Free Will
(Glasgow, 1938). Jonathan Edwards, Freedom of the Will,
ed. P. Ramsey (New Haven, 1957). Thomas Hobbes, Of
Liberty and Necessity, in The English Works of Thomas
Hobbes, ed. Sir William Molesworth, 5 vols. (London,
1839-45), Vols. IV, V. Sidney Hook, ed., Determinism and
Freedom in the Age of Modern Science (New York, 1961).
David Hume, An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding
(New York, 1955), Sec. VIII. William James, “The Dilemma
of Determinism,” in The Will to Believe (1897; New York,
1921). Immanuel Kant, Critique of Practical Reason, trans.
L. W. Beck (Chicago, 1949). G. W. Leibniz, Selections, ed.
Philip P. Wiener (New York, 1951). John Locke, An Essay
Concerning Human Understanding, ed. A. C. Fraser, 2 vols.
(New York, 1959), Vol. I, Book II, Ch. XXI. A. I. Melden,
Free Action (New York, 1961). John Stuart Mill, An Exami-
nation of Sir William Hamilton's Philosophy (London, 1867),
Ch. XXVI. P. H. Nowell-Smith, Ethics (Harmondsworth,
1954), Chs. XIX, XX. Plato, The Republic, trans. F. M.
Cornford (London and New York, 1945). Moritz Schlick,
Problems of Ethics, trans. D. Rynin (New York, 1939), Ch.
VII. Benedict Spinoza, Ethics, ed. J. Gutmann (New York,
1949). Philip Wheelright, Aristotle (New York, 1951).

BERNARD BEROFSKY
 
I think this is what gordon was trying to say ...


I guess plato, aristole, etc ... where ahead for their time as well.
(You're in good company Gordon )

How this effects the price of eggs, I haven't the foggiest. If anyone can reduce this down to a discernable sentence or two, I'm all ears.
 
One sentence:

Monkey see, monkey do....

Quote from pattersb:

I think this is what gordon was trying to say ...


I guess plato, aristole, etc ... where ahead for their time as well.
(You're in good company Gordon )

How this effects the price of eggs, I haven't the foggiest. If anyone can reduce this down to a discernable sentence or two, I'm all ears.
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

One sentence:

Monkey see, monkey do....


Thanks, I was way off. I arrived at "What's good for the goose is good for the gander".

One day, I hope to be one of those rare humans that truly understands how the universe operates.
 
Tendencies are true, but those with a functioning intellect know that determinism the way you describe it is false.

Quote from Gordon Gekko:

ANYONE that does not realize determinism is true, is simply lacking knowledge, period. the info i posted on page 1 is how to get it.
 
Quote from pattersb:

I think this is what gordon was trying to say ...


I guess plato, aristole, etc ... where ahead for their time as well.
(You're in good company Gordon )
btw, whenever i say i'm ahead of my time, i completely realize there are others..and that there were others before me. what i mean is, today probably way less than 1% of the world's population gets this stuff.
 
I AM REALLY LIKING THIS SPINOZA DUDE:


Both accepted
determinism; but Spinoza, unlike the Stoics, was
unwavering in his application of determinism to the
psychological domain. The behavior and mental life
of human beings are completely determined and can-
not, therefore, be different from what they are. We
often think we are free or choose freely in a sense
implying the absence of causal determination; but this
belief is a consequence of our ignorance of the causes
that determined our action or choice.
Because the term
“free will” was often used to explain behavior that was
believed to be immune to explanation by underlying
causes, Spinoza rejected this view of the concept.
Moreover, it is absurd to praise and blame people since
they are and do what they must be and do. We should
rather seek to understand the causes of their actions
and states of mind.


Like the Stoics, Spinoza felt that the wise man would
react to universal determinism in two ways: (1) he
would, of course, acquiesce; and (2) he would seek
knowledge of the causes of his own behavior in order
to understand his position in nature.
The latter takes
on added significance in the light of Spinoza's meta-
physical system. He believed that “mind” and “body”
are not the names of distinct substances that jointly
comprise man, but are rather the names of two differ-
ent ways of conceiving the unitary man. Hence, every
bodily state can be conceived as a mental one, and
conversely. The ideas of an ignorant man will not be
connected logically because ignorance is the lack of
knowledge of causes, and causal knowledge, according
to Spinoza, is expressed in a deductive system where
ideas depend on one another logically.
The bodily
aspect of ignorance is the predominance of passive
emotions, emotions like love and hate that reflect the
passive reaction to things that conduce to or detract
from pleasure or vitality. As a man's intelligence in-
creases and his ideas begin to succeed one another
logically, his emotions will become active, i.e., they
will be generated by mental activity itself. He will
pursue his own interests and seek the friendship of
others, guided by reason alone. He will be objective,
resolute, happy, and free of pettiness.
This develop-
ment also represents an increase in perfection and
freedom. Spinoza speaks of freedom because, under
man's mental and physical aspects, man will be (rela-
tively) free of external influence, his states and activi-
ties resulting rather from his own causal activity. His
ideas will be the results of other ideas, and his emotions
and actions will be determined by his own mental
activity. In general terms, therefore, Spinoza conceived
of freedom as self-determinism, not indeterminism.
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Show us the free will for you to post something intelligent....for a change.
ZZZ you're probably just angry because you clearly have had shit determinism so far, or you wouldn't be the bitter bozo that you are. but as determinism says, it's not your fault. i don't hate ya. just don't take it out on me, fucker.
 
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