Thinking Of Going For CFA -- Is It Possible?

[newwurldmn]

What exiting opportunities are you talking about? How someone was not sent to France or Asia to represent the company one works at but now can with the blessing of a piece of paper which really only proves one got in but not much more beyond that? I was treated like shit in interviews when I tried to transition from a support role to a trading function about 17 years ago just because my college was not all that great. Then I instead went for an advanced quant program at Carnegie Mellon and voila, I was suddenly flown in via business class and accommodated in top hotels thousands of miles from the US just to fly in for the final round of interviews towards my conclusion of grad school. It was surreal and outright disgusting. I was offered several trading positions right out of grad school and the firms truly competed for my signature. I hardly ever applied a single thing I learned at school at the job. You tell me how valuable that grad school degree really was other than open doors.

You've been on Wall Street for a long time. You know it's competitive and generally firms look for people who exhibit intelligence and competitiveness in their previous experience. We had a guy who went to a small third tier school. However we was an all star athlete and graduated at the top of his class in three years (both hs and college). CMU shows competitiveness and intelligence. If you went to ecole poly technique you would have shown that. but you didn't so you had to show it another way. That's how meritocracies work. Those who exhibit the most potential, get the most opportunities.

So what can an MBA program do for you? It gives you access to ambitious, intelligent people who have different and interesting ideas. my wife went to a top MBA program. A lot of her friends are doing really interesting things: ceos of disruptive companies, partners at consulting firms, innovative philanthropy. None of whom she would have exposure to on the trading floor. If you are myopically focused on exotics derivatives trading then an MBA isn't for you.

 

[Zzzz1]

I agree with all you said. But I have access to the very same sort of people of diverse backgrounds and trades, some of which I enjoy spending time with, others less so. My point here is that none of those people I met or got to know via my job or Alma mater, and I can assure you none of those whom I surround myself with in my free time would have chosen to spend their time because of my academic background. My entire point relies on the premise that one can get all that traditional education sells by oneself given one is driven. For the less driven who must rely on traditional education such has become very expensive. I was not driven early in my life but became totally driven later on and for people like me having the ability to buy a nice looking piece of paper from a great school was an awesome investment into my future. But I strongly disagree how some like @Sig make it sound like as if academic institutions were providing a rounded education for the masses or had any interest or investment in furthering others' progress in life. It's a friggin transaction, that's what it is. If you open your eyes and reach out you meet the same awesome and diverse people on the street than in an expensive MBA program.

You've been on Wall Street for a long time. You know it's competitive and generally firms look for people who exhibit intelligence and competitiveness in their previous experience. We had a guy who went to a small third tier school. However we was an all star athlete and graduated at the top of his class in three years (both hs and college). CMU shows competitiveness and intelligence. If you went to ecole poly technique you would have shown that. but you didn't so you had to show it another way. That's how meritocracies work. Those who exhibit the most potential, get the most opportunities.

So what can an MBA program do for you? It gives you access to ambitious, intelligent people who have different and interesting ideas. my wife went to a top MBA program. A lot of her friends are doing really interesting things: ceos of disruptive companies, partners at consulting firms, innovative philanthropy. None of whom she would have exposure to on the trading floor. If you are myopically focused on exotics derivatives trading then an MBA isn't for you.

 

[Sig]

And please climb down from your high intellectual horse for a moment and give us a breather.

Nobody said that one cannot be intellectually enriched or learn critical thinking, as you so eloquently put it, at universities. I simply claimed that the university institution as we currently know it charges way too much and hence puts that "experience" beyond the affordability of most people. Then you make it sound as if universities teach us the great values of life and all that in a non transactional manner? Give me a break. No other entity in my life is pestering me more about opening my wallets and give give give than my Alma mater. And all that after I shelled out a ridiculous amount during my studies. University are nothing but greedy and inefficiently run institutions and they take it in a purely transactional manner. You suggesting otherwise flies into the face of everything universities nowadays do to market themselves.

Don't get me wrong. I am thankful for my degree and the money I spent to buy it. It got me into the discipline I wanted to get into. And it paid off handsomely. But it was a name I bought and it was purely transactional. All the other virtues in life I self learned, accumulated with good friends and significant others together in small circles or I was bestowed with through the upbringing by my parents. Sorry if you are less driven and need an academic setting to "enrich your life and learn to think ciritically" or if your natural environment did not support you in your quest for a rounded education to ready you for life.

I sense you are representing exactly that portion of the "establishment" that so many out there are tired of and ready to change. Traditional education is shaken to its foundations and the world will not learn anymore the way it learns today in just 1 or 2 decades. We are in a period of transition because the way we went about things are not working anymore and/or have become unaffordable for really no apparent reason.

I'm glad we got past the nonsense that you can learn to do anything with on the job training. You've got a serious chip on your shoulder my friend, and again I'm sorry you missed out on a great opportunity and the ability to realize that there's far more to life than some kind of monetary payoff. Hopefully you'll grow to a point where you realize that some day, your life will be richer for it.

 

[Zzzz1]

You are a prick. Nobody ever talked about on the job training. Stop to change facts just so that your angle sounds more sophisticated. Lol, what? If all you got from our exchange is a false impression that I am overly focused on money then I truly pity you. Is that the logical reasoning skills you picked up at school? I simply spoke what I believe is true. You can of course choose to continue to live in your little Cinderella castle and dream away. I rather work with people who are interesting and have a passion for life and others to make education again more affordable and exciting for the masses. Clearly recent developments around the world show that traditional education utterly failed at teaching people critical reasoning skills. Peace to you and your world. I bet you are one of those who wears sweaters with logos of his alma mater on his weekend yachting outings lol.

I'm glad we got past the nonsense that you can learn to do anything with on the job training. You've got a serious chip on your shoulder my friend, and again I'm sorry you missed out on a great opportunity and the ability to realize that there's far more to life than some kind of monetary payoff. Hopefully you'll grow to a point where you realize that some day, your life will be richer for it.

 

[Sig]

You are a prick. Nobody ever talked about on the job training. Stop to change facts just so that your angle sounds more sophisticated. Lol, what? If all you got from our exchange is a false impression that I am overly focused on money then I truly pity you. Is that the logical reasoning skills you picked up at school? I simply spoke what I believe is true. You can of course choose to continue to live in your little Cinderella castle and dream away. I rather work with people who are interesting and have a passion for life and others to make education again more affordable and exciting for the masses. Clearly recent developments around the world show that traditional education utterly failed at teaching people critical reasoning skills. Peace to you and your world. I bet you are one of those who wears sweaters with logos of his alma mater on his weekend yachting outings lol.

Just in case you forgot what you posted in this thread "I simply stated in summary that paying more than a hundred thousand for a grad school degree and by that extension any formal educational studies that cost money and a huge investment in time are quite useless unless they are really applied to a greater goal such as a job or getting funded or recognized in an industry being self-employed." and then "Most formal education is garbage and cannot be applied to life other than getting the foot in the door with potential employers or fill your resume to speak to potential investors/backers." interspersed with liberal insults about those attending universes lacking drive, intelligence, being part of the establishment, and finally the ever intelligent rejoinder of "You are a prick". All persuasive wisdom of an intelligent, well rounded person we all aspire to be like, clearly. You've done a remarkable job of making my point for me, well done sir!

 

[Zzzz1]

Nice taking quotes out of context,throwing in your own misunderstanding and then claiming that that's what I stand for. I stand by everything I said (including labeling you a prick for purposely taking things out of context and altering what others said just because you ran out of arguments). You choose to continue to see university education as the gold standard. I see it as an unaffordable, inefficiently run (both financially and in terms of actually delivering on the stated purpose of existance) construct of the past that needs to be reformed. Thankfully we are in the middle of doing so. Either universities will adjust or they will be made obsolete. Even the richest on this earth who are invested in the future generation's well being think alike and align their pockets with this development of how people receive targeted and tailored education in the near future. Harvard can for all intends and purposes turn itself into a hedge fund because that's how they seem to focus their priorities on. Or it can change course. It's a choice. Let's agree to disagree, I don't want to invest more of my time going back and forth with you.

Just in case you forgot what you posted in this thread "I simply stated in summary that paying more than a hundred thousand for a grad school degree and by that extension any formal educational studies that cost money and a huge investment in time are quite useless unless they are really applied to a greater goal such as a job or getting funded or recognized in an industry being self-employed." and then "Most formal education is garbage and cannot be applied to life other than getting the foot in the door with potential employers or fill your resume to speak to potential investors/backers." interspersed with liberal insults about those attending universes lacking drive, intelligence, being part of the establishment, and finally the ever intelligent rejoinder of "You are a prick". All persuasive wisdom of an intelligent, well rounded person we all aspire to be like, clearly. You've done a remarkable job of making my point for me, well done sir!

 

[newwurldmn]

I agree with all you said. But I have access to the very same sort of people of diverse backgrounds and trades, some of which I enjoy spending time with, others less so. My point here is that none of those people I met or got to know via my job or Alma mater, and I can assure you none of those whom I surround myself with in my free time would have chosen to spend their time because of my academic background. My entire point relies on the premise that one can get all that traditional education sells by oneself given one is driven. For the less driven who must rely on traditional education such has become very expensive. I was not driven early in my life but became totally driven later on and for people like me having the ability to buy a nice looking piece of paper from a great school was an awesome investment into my future. But I strongly disagree how some like @Sig make it sound like as if academic institutions were providing a rounded education for the masses or had any interest or investment in furthering others' progress in life. It's a friggin transaction, that's what it is. If you open your eyes and reach out you meet the same awesome and diverse people on the street than in an expensive MBA program.

It's not necessarily just a transaction. It can be if that's what you want. A masters in quant finance from CMU is closer to a trade school degree than an MFA or a general management MBA in that your sole purpose is to get to a bank. At my wife's school there were many who saw the program as just an opportunity to restart their careers. But there were also many who sought exposure to a greater world.

I don't know where "the masses" come from. Each person has to tailor their own experience.

 

[Zzzz1]

The masses comes from the huge amount of people who are entering their lives after college and even after their MBA or other grad school programs with huge piles of debt. And that includes only those who actually went to university and were not scared away by a huge financial gamble (though the gamble admittedly has always paid off so far). If you sum up those who are in student debt and those who did not attend because of financial reasons then its a fair assumption to talk of "masses". Lack of financial means should not set the course for life by not being able to go to college or grad school or having to choose to undergo a community college education. One part of me feels complicit in this machinery of amplifying the divide by the lucky and unlucky ones. Luck or pedigree currently determines to a huge degree where in life we end up. And a huge factor in this is the money educational institutions in many countries charge because the state has outsourced education to private providers who are operating for profit. Money gets admission officers at many top schools l
To wink through otherwise unqualified applicants. Money meaning potential future donations and grants. @Sig claiming that it is me who reduces education to a transaction is ludicrous by conveniently omitting how universities nowadays operate, how research grants are allocated, who gets admitted and who not based on future expected cash flows, the marketing machinery many schools are operating for the sole purpose of revenue generation, the disgusting alumni money sucking operation. Soon alumni will be categorized into Prestige, Preferred, and then the rest of the shites. I proudly stand to say I never gave a single penny in donations to my university. Not one cent. And I never will. Why? Because my school is charging a fortune in tuition and if they cannot fund their operations with that and the other causes they are supporting then they have a huge management problem and should go bankrupt. The school is floating in money and I do not see the slightest need why they cannot manage with my 86000 usd tuition per year (not the whole program but per year, and that was some time ago). I donate a significant chunk of money to my religious affiliation and other causes and spend a good amount of time volunteering myself. But I do it for people or organizations who are hungry to build, help others succeed rather than sucking money into a black hole.

It's not necessarily just a transaction. It can be if that's what you want. A masters in quant finance from CMU is closer to a trade school degree than an MFA or a general management MBA in that your sole purpose is to get to a bank. At my wife's school there were many who saw the program as just an opportunity to restart their careers. But there were also many who sought exposure to a greater world.

I don't know where "the masses" come from. Each person has to tailor their own experience.

 

[destriero]

I have to admit when I came across the thread title I initially felt "another misguided person" as trading and CFA is such an extreme mismatch. But I have to admit your rational and logic flows and makes sense.

I started getting a CFA long time ago but stopped before passing the second part of the studies because I was fully immersed as bank trader then and just did not find any reason to motivate or convince myself to go further. I was completely captured by my fascination for trading and everything that surrounds this discipline.

If you are like that, if you simply know trading is not just a hobby or temporary fascination, if you don't trade for the income but would do it even if you were not paid for doing it then a CFA is utterly useless. Everyone measures you by your performance and a CFA can even confuse others when they assess you and think of hiring or funding a pure breed trader and risk manager.

But if you don't count yourself among this tiny group, described above, a CFA makes total sense and all your points, made, flow logically. I would then say, Go for it!

Re work experience you need to check the details of how they define it. If you are currently trade as main occupation perhaps you can form a company shell around it if that helps to count as "work experience". You already know from your CFA studies that the Institute is pretty rigid, in many ways outdated and very theoretical. I would say, strictly stick with what is absolutely legit and ethical, if you can't get the "work experience clock" going then simply delay your studies. But I don't recommend changing what you really wanna do for a certificate.

Good luck.

lol bank trader.

 

[newwurldmn]

The masses comes from the huge amount of people who are entering their lives after college and even after their MBA or other grad school programs with huge piles of debt. And that includes only those who actually went to university and were not scared away by a huge financial gamble (though the gamble admittedly has always paid off so far). If you sum up those who are in student debt and those who did not attend because of financial reasons then its a fair assumption to talk of "masses". Lack of financial means should not set the course for life by not being able to go to college or grad school or having to choose to undergo a community college education. One part of me feels complicit in this machinery of amplifying the divide by the lucky and unlucky ones. Luck or pedigree currently determines to a huge degree where in life we end up. And a huge factor in this is the money educational institutions in many countries charge because the state has outsourced education to private providers who are operating for profit. It's a well documented fact that money gets admission officers at many top schools close their eyes over an otherwise unqualified applicant. Money meaning potential future donations and grants. @Sig claiming that it is me who reduces education to a transaction is ludicrous by conveniently omitting how universities nowadays operate, how research grants are allocated, who gets admitted and who not based on future expected cash flows, the marketing machinery many schools are operating for the sole purpose of revenue generation, the disgusting alumni money sucking operation. Soon alumni will be categorized into Prestige, Preferred, and then the rest of the shites. I proudly stand to say I never gave a single penny in donations to my university. Not one cent. And I never will. Why? Because my school is charging a fortune in tuition and if they cannot fund their operations with that and the other causes they are supporting then they have a huge management problem and should go bankrupt. The school is floating in money and I do not see the slightest need why they cannot manage with my 86000 usd tuition per year (not the whole program but per year, and that was some time ago). I donate a significant chunk of money to my religious affiliation and other causes and spend a good amount of time volunteering myself. But I do it for people or organizations who are hungry to build, help others succeed rather than sucking money into a black hole.

This seems like the same rantings you did at volpunter.

The conversation was about what one person can get out of an MBA program. You stated that it's pointless outside of a transactional degree and I disagreed.

Regarding elites, etc. Very few people pay full tuition. And that rarely affects admission decisions, especially at the ivy caliber schools. Most students get scholarships, low interest loans, and student jobs. Notoriety helps but that only applies to very few applicants (like the Obama children). But none of this has to do with the original discussion point.