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There's something wrong with human nature.
- Thread starter Rearden Metal
- Start date
Please ignore my previous two posts. It was an error.
Pardon me from butting in , despite the troll, (teleologist) confusing the issue, collectivism IS the free market.
The fact that concept no longer exists, is a FLAW of the free market economy, that unrestrained trade is taxed into extinction before it can get off the ground, in terms of actual business.
The limits on actual real day-to day business are so extraordinary, it's a fucking true miracle, anyone currently residing in new york, at all, can live there.......at all.
Capitalism = a social system based on private ownership and exchange of goods & labour.
Two subsets of capitalism:
Free market capitalism = private ownership and exchange, based on free/voluntary transactions and individual/property rights. Examples - any market without significant state or criminal interference. Closest examples are probably 20th century Hong Kong under British rule, 19th century northern USA.
Corporatism/conservatism = private ownership and exchange, but various private and state bodies have the power to forcibly prohibit or extort goods & labour e.g. government licensed monopolies, trade bodies/guilds, land seizure, sometimes more extreme stuff such as slave trading, corporations stealing resources from 3rd world countries and so on. Individual & property rights are somewhat respected but ultimately subordinate to state authority. Examples - colonial powers like USA, UK, Japan, Australia, Canada.
Communism = total government ownership and control of goods & labour. Examples: USSR, Cuba, N Korea, 1960s China.
Socialism = widespread but not total communism (some areas are left under private control and some degree of liberty). Examples - 1960s-90s Africa, most of the Arab world, 1970s UK, 1950s-1970s Italy, 1980s France, India from independence up to the 1980s.
Social democracy = mix of corporatism/conservatism and socialism. Examples - Scandinavia, Germany, France.
Socialism and communism are demonstrable failures, but the other 3 have all produced functioning societies - take your pick.
Two subsets of capitalism:
Free market capitalism = private ownership and exchange, based on free/voluntary transactions and individual/property rights. Examples - any market without significant state or criminal interference. Closest examples are probably 20th century Hong Kong under British rule, 19th century northern USA.
Corporatism/conservatism = private ownership and exchange, but various private and state bodies have the power to forcibly prohibit or extort goods & labour e.g. government licensed monopolies, trade bodies/guilds, land seizure, sometimes more extreme stuff such as slave trading, corporations stealing resources from 3rd world countries and so on. Individual & property rights are somewhat respected but ultimately subordinate to state authority. Examples - colonial powers like USA, UK, Japan, Australia, Canada.
Communism = total government ownership and control of goods & labour. Examples: USSR, Cuba, N Korea, 1960s China.
Socialism = widespread but not total communism (some areas are left under private control and some degree of liberty). Examples - 1960s-90s Africa, most of the Arab world, 1970s UK, 1950s-1970s Italy, 1980s France, India from independence up to the 1980s.
Social democracy = mix of corporatism/conservatism and socialism. Examples - Scandinavia, Germany, France.
Socialism and communism are demonstrable failures, but the other 3 have all produced functioning societies - take your pick.
That's not what he means by collectivism. That would just be voluntary group organisation, which is obviously beneficial in many areas, and is unobjectionable.
"Collectivism" in political theory means using violent force or threats to subordinate the rights of the individual to the interests & benefits of a group. For example, seizing ancestral lands from a few hundred people to bulldoze their homes and build a dam to supply power to the nearest metropolis. I.e. it is *unfree*, as it requires coercion of people against their will, and usually harms them when they have done nothing wrong.
Collectivism if done by 2 private citizens to 1 private citizen would be a criminal offence. Free market capitalists thus object to it on the grounds that it is still a crime whether 2 do it to 1, or 200 million do it to 1 million. In fact, most crimes are considered to become more heinous the greater the number of victims.
Just because the state does it, is not believed (by free market capitalists) to be a defence. After all, if the state murdered an innocent person, that would be a scandal and a crime. Thus it becomes no more permissible if the state murders 1 million innocent people - even if they call it a war, police action, humanitarian intervention, nation-building, self-defence etc.
Either deliberately harming innocent people is wrong, or it is ok. If it is wrong, then it does not become ok just because the people wanting to do the harm happen to group together, hire some muscle, and then call themselves a government. It does not become ok just because lots of people want to do the harm, and the victims are few in number, or lacking in the ability to defend themselves against overwhelming odds.
...and where would you place Red China?
During what era? Obviously nowadays it's not a communist government despite the name. It hasn't been communist since the late 70s really. I would say today it's an authoritarian socialist state which is moving towards some corporatist/capitalist policies.
...guess you left out "authoritarian socialist state" from your list.
LOL!!!
LOL!!!
Yes. Ok Cutten, I understand what you are saying.
I suggest that you read what professional philosophers say:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism
Then you can dig deeper.