There's something wrong with human nature.

What does my own situation have to do with others?

Answer, nothing...

That's why I keep my personal business personal.

So how can I critique?

From reason and common sense...

Arguments from personal experience may be quite passionate, but they often do not necessarily stand the test of reason and common sense.

Yes, I do laud the 12 steps, I am not alone in this point of view.

"If" you came to your god through those steps, it's clear you're seriously stuck on a few in the middle.

If "ifs and butts were candy and nuts"...

My own experience is personal, so if you make any judgment you are doing so without foundation...

"They reveal something to me which is informative from a psychoanalytic standpoint, and I think would be informative to you too if you engaged in a bit of introspection."

Then since you don't have the facts, I will leave you to your own fact devoid speculations...

Quote from Fractal:

Sure it is, if you want to critique the behavior and motives of many other addicts on a public forum. Because you make it <i>your</i> business, I have no issues of propriety or manners with making your own motivations something of interest.

They reveal something to me which is informative from a psychoanalytic standpoint, and I think would be informative to you too if you engaged in a bit of introspection.

You've lauded the 12 steps. If you came to your god through those steps, it's clear you're seriously stuck on a few in the middle.
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Maybe not those who actually seek help within the system, but what about those who go outside of the system because they didn't like the system?

Are they treated then like criminals?

So why do so many rock stars who can afford drugs, try so hard to quit them?

Apparently they don't agree over time that drugs don't hurt either themselves or others...

Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

The point is that they don't treat drug users like hardened criminals. If you're a drug addict there, there is a path you can take to manage your addiction without having your life ruined by the legal system. And the Swiss state is not corrupted by the dirty business of engaging in political persecution of victims of addiction, cozying up to shady 3rd world regimes that pledge to burn a few poppy fields, training corrupt foreign law enforcement in torture, or artificially skyrocketing the profits of drug dealing cartels, as the US state is. Just as out of control alcohol addicts or gambling addicts should be treated, not criminalised, so should out of control drug addicts.

As for those relative few who can manage their addictions, such as wealthy rock stars or financial traders - well, if they can manage it, then how are they a problem for the criminal justice system? If a rich guy makes and/or buys his own product, and manages to go through life without harming others...so what?
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You're acting in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith_%28existentialism%29">bad faith</a> by defining your motivations this way. You do not critique out of common sense and reason. Nor do you do so simply because RM made his addiction public and was "asking" for dialog. You're distinctly <i>drawn</i> to these attacks, and they have a compulsive and sadistic quality to them.

If you can see patterns and understand psychoanalysis you recognize what's at the root of this. Your bad faith is a means of disguising this from yourself.

At any rate, I'm actually not trying to attack you. Addiction is a tragedy of the human condition. I'm recognizing a pattern, pointing it out to you, and revealing it at odds in substance with the 12 steps program you follow (honest and brutal inventory, reconciling one's faults of mind and action with oneself and others, etc.).

You should be asking yourself why I hit the target so accurately -- if there's an element of truth (visible in a moment of honest reflection) then perhaps you should turn your gaze inward to see what made that pattern clear to some anonymous dude on the internet.

That's it, I won't say anything else.


Quote from OPTIONAL777:

What does my own situation have to do with others?

Answer, nothing...

That's why I keep my personal business personal.

So how can I critique?

From reason and common sense...

Arguments from personal experience may be quite passionate, but they often do not necessarily stand the test of reason and common sense.

Yes, I do laud the 12 steps, I am not alone in this point of view.

"If" you came to your god through those steps, it's clear you're seriously stuck on a few in the middle.

If "ifs and butts were candy and nuts"...

My own experience is personal, so if you make any judgment you are doing so without foundation...

"They reveal something to me which is informative from a psychoanalytic standpoint, and I think would be informative to you too if you engaged in a bit of introspection."

Then since you don't have the facts, I will leave you to your own fact devoid speculations...
More...
 
You missed the target by a mile...

Quote from Fractal:

You're acting in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith_%28existentialism%29">bad faith</a> by defining your motivations this way. You do not critique out of common sense and reason. Nor do you do so simply because RM made his addiction public and was "asking" for dialog. You're distinctly <i>drawn</i> to these attacks, and they have a compulsive and sadistic quality to them.

If you can see patterns and understand psychoanalysis you recognize what's at the root of this. Your bad faith is a means of disguising this from yourself.

At any rate, I'm actually not trying to attack you. Addiction is a tragedy of the human condition. I'm recognizing a pattern, pointing it out to you, and revealing it at odds in substance with the 12 steps program you follow (honest and brutal inventory, reconciling one's faults of mind and action with oneself and others, etc.).

You should be asking yourself why I hit the target so accurately -- if there's an element of truth (visible in a moment of honest reflection) then perhaps you should turn your gaze inward to see what made that pattern clear to some anonymous dude on the internet.

That's it, I won't say anything else.
More...
 
One could argue that those who spend an inordinate amount of time on a computer are addicts as well. Everyone must employ moderation and common sense in relation to their own frailties and weaknesses.
 
Quote from OPTIONAL777:

You missed the target by a mile...
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We'll see. The only question I have is whether you came to your approach to god via a program, or whether it is part and parcel with the addiction itself.
 
If that is the only question you have, good luck with your blindly wild guesses as to the answer...for all you will ever have is guesses without foundation.

So much for:

"That's it, I won't say anything else."

Quote from Fractal:

We'll see. The only question I have is whether you came to your approach to god via a program, or whether it is part and parcel with the addiction itself.
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Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

The system will change once sufficient countries for sufficient time have a policy of medical, not criminal treatment of drug addicts. The obvious and undeniable successes resulting from this more enlightened policy will save so much money, reduce crime so much, and rehabilitate so many people, with so little negative consequences, that eventually only socially backward societies will be able to hold out for decades with a criminalisation/prohibition approach.

Once most if not all of the civilised world has adopted that approach and the benefits are universally acknowledged, then thanks to the wonders of the internet, we will be able to come back and look at the ET archives/google cache and laugh uproariously at reactionary ignoramuses like vhehn, and chuckle loudly at how completely wrong they are. With a bit of luck, he might actually still be alive, in which he will say something like "Of course, things have changed now, and I could support limited decriminalisation, if it was properly regulated that is. In fact that was my position all along."

Really it is quite amusing how stick in the mud some people can be. Reading some posts here, it is apparent that some people *honestly believe* the drug prohibition is not only right, not only sensible, but *will actually last*. As a professional forecaster of the future, I can guarantee you that drug prohibition will go the way of alcohol prohibition eventually. People opposed to that progress are just social and intellectual dinosaurs who will go the way of the dodo. Just as mainstream reactionary society once supported flat-earthism, feudalism, the divine right of kings, alchemy, blood-letting, slavery, racism, sexism, homophobia, theocracy, and other totally irrational barbaric modes of thought and social oppression, so today's mainsteam support their own versions. It is really amazing how blinkered people can be, not seeing that they themselves are today's reactionaries, taking the ostrich approach to social progress. I am just thankful that this ossified, unimaginative, set in its ways thinking is also the main reason for your lifelong continual donations in the financial markets and other competitive fields, to my considerable personal benefit. Thank you.
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Appreciate the comments, I'll give this issue some more thought.
 
EVERLAST LYRICS

"What It's Like"

We've all seen the man at the liquor store beggin' for your change
The hair on his face is dirty, dreadlocked and full of mange
He ask the man for what he could spare with shame in his eyes
Get a job you fuckin' slob's all he replied

[CHORUS]
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues
Then you really might know what it's like [x4]

Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom who said he was in love
He said don't worry about a thing baby doll I'm the man you've been dreamin' of
But three months later he said he won't date her or return her call
And she sweared god damn if I find that man I'm cuttin' off his balls
And then she heads for the clinic and she gets some static walkin' through the doors
They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner, and they call her a whore

[CHORUS]
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose
Then you really might know what it's like [x4]

I've seen a rich man beg
I've seen a good man sin
I've seen a tough man cry
I've seen a loser win
And a sad man grin
I heard an honest man lie
I've seen the good side of bad
And the down side of up
And everything between
I licked the silver spoon
Drank from the golden cup
Smoked the finest green
I stroked the fattest dimes at least a couple of times
Before I broke their heart
You know where it ends
Yo, it usually depends on where you start

I knew this kid named Max
He used to get fat stacks out on the corner with drugs
He liked to hang out late at night
Liked to get shit faced
And keep pace with thugs
Until late one night there was a big gun fight
Max lost his head
He pulled out his chrome .45
Talked some shit
And wound up dead
Now his wife and his kids are caught in the midst of all of his pain
You know it crumbles that way
At least that's what they say when you play the game

[CHORUS]
God forbid you ever had to wake up to hear the news
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to lose
Then you really might know what it's like [x3]

To have to lose...
 
I used to slam a fucking gram of h a day, it is AWFUL to come off. If wd is such a myth then why on earth are there sub/methadone clinics in every major and almost every decent sized city in the United States? Nausea, anxiety, body aches, reduced temperature. It's not called "dope sick" because it is pleasant. A semi close friend of mine (21 years old) overdosed and died two nights ago, he was a top ranked bullrider and had a wonderful supportive family. He was full of self esteem and life. Addiction can strike anybody regardless of class, race or gender. All of your bullshit lab studies with rats are moot point because they take the human element out of it. Humans are fallible and prone to old crutches, another reason why it is so hard to stop, I'd be lying right now if I said I didn't want a fucking rig black to a full cc shot into my arm right now. IF you haven't ever personally withdrawn from opiates then please save the commentary of how wd is such a myth.
 
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