there is no career in trading - quote

[murray t turtle]

No you have it backwards. It's zero-sum within the context of a specific transaction within a specific point or duration of time. In the long run over a period of time, byproducts of trading are produced for the benefit of all so real products with real value are actually produced and real wealth are produced because people actually buy the products that are produced by trading. This is what the majority of people fail or refuse to understand and/or acknowledge.

Everybody's productive life is a minnow if you want to define it the way you do. But by aggregation, the work that we do, the contribution we make culminate to the grand scheme of things. That's how it is with every single profession no matter how "big" including being a country's leader.

In my mind, there is no difference in "prestigiousness" between jobs. The job of a garbage collector is just as prestigious as the leader of a country. The only difference is in their function.

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Good points.
SOME help keep SCHW + IBKR...... in business. Wealth collectors , mutual funds are just as important as garbage collectors.
And even as little kid, i helped my mom year ago taking out the trash\bear trends\shorts do that also ....................................

 

[cruisecontrol]

I agree trading isn’t zero sum in that a liquid market inflates asset prices and that incentivizes real capital to be invested. It is largely zero sum in that there is a winner and a loser as real wealth isn’t produced (like building an airplane or providing a real service). It’s value is a secondary derivative.

Do you want the sum of your productive life to be a minnow in that phenomenon?

obviously there’s no right answer. It’s all based on our own value system and full disclosure I’m struggling with it myself.

Real wealth is produced, it's just indirect. Making the financial markets more efficient frees up resources to be used in more productive ways.

What do you think would happen if most of the big liquidity providers dropped out of the market tomorrow to become sandwich artists? (that is a "real service" right?) Spreads would get crazy wide due to decreased competition and the total spent on liquidity would go way up. That's real money being sucked out of the economy.

 

[newwurldmn]

Real wealth is produced, it's just indirect. Making the financial markets more efficient frees up resources to be used in more productive ways.

What do you think would happen if most of the big liquidity providers dropped out of the market tomorrow to become sandwich artists? (that is a "real service" right?) Spreads would get crazy wide due to decreased competition and the total spent on liquidity would go way up. That's real money being sucked out of the economy.

market makers are different. They provide liquidity. Most retail traders are trend followers and suck up liquidity. I agree with your post. I said it myself.

Is that what you want your life to amount to? Speculating and as result the economy might have gotten a little more efficient (but possibly not for your source of alpha)?

I’m personally struggling with this as I’m coming to a crossroads (divert more efforts to my manufacturing business or to my trading endeavors).

 

[Millionaire]

market makers are different. They provide liquidity. Most retail traders are trend followers and suck up liquidity.

It doesnt matter if we suck or add liquidity at price extremes, in both cases we are supporting the market.

eg, you sell short soon after the open when the market is thick and and there is no panic selling yet, the market falls 1000 points and there is fear in the market, you take profits at that point. Doesn't matter if you use buy limits or buy market orders to take profits, either way you are supporting the market when it is down 1000 points.

 

[murray t turtle]

It doesnt matter if we suck or add liquidity at price extremes, in both cases we are supporting the market.

eg, you sell soon after the open when the market is thick and and there is no panic selling yet, the market falls 1000 points and there is fear in the market, you take profits at that point. Doesn't matter if you use buy limits or buy market orders to take profits you are supporting the market when it is down 1000 points...

%%
Amen;
+ help brokers, market makers/specialists
+help her\ the chart printers,
used to support using printer ink myself, but now limit that to pens + colored Flair type felt tip pens , crayons, chart payments,
a bit of gasoline\oil to get to trading room,
buy TM from trading account,
help USPO with monthly mailed statements,
help local bank, deposit from trading account,
occasional trade notebook.
Personal Trading Library; trading books/investing books, occasional WSJ ,IBD.............................................................................................
By the way, trees\paper are a renewable \resource i dont ever want all electric confirmation,

 

[newwurldmn]

It doesnt matter if we suck or add liquidity at price extremes, in both cases we are supporting the market.

eg, you sell soon after the open when the market is thick and and there is no panic selling yet, the market falls 1000 points and there is fear in the market, you take profits at that point. Doesn't matter if you use buy limits or buy market orders to take profits, either way you are supporting the market when it is down 1000 points...

should we ignore the fact that you helped create the panic sell off?

 

[cruisecontrol]

market makers are different. They provide liquidity. Most retail traders are trend followers and suck up liquidity. I agree with your post. I said it myself.

If you are profitable you are by definition providing liquidity on the timescale you trade on. (Whether you actually use market orders or limit orders is actually irrelevant.)

Momo trading is generally only profitable when it contributes to price discovery as deviations from fair value will eventually (inevitably) revert. So if the momentum is going away from fair value, then the momentum trader will get losses when the reversion comes.

Is that what you want your life to amount to? Speculating and as result the economy might have gotten a little more efficient (but possibly not for your source of alpha)?

I’m personally struggling with this as I’m coming to a crossroads (divert more efforts to my manufacturing business or to my trading endeavors).

Personally I have no issue with it. I make way more in trading than I would with any other skill that I have, I just see this as the market telling me that I am more valuable to the economy as a trader.

I think it's best to just to evaluate it like any other business. I think you are adding a moral component on it that isn't real. There are certain types of behavior in markets which are anti competitive and anti productive (frontrunning, coercion, pump and dump, insider trading, selling fake information etc) If you are just trading and you aren't doing these then you should be confident that you are producing real value.

 

[newwurldmn]

Momentum trading isn’t about price discovery. It’s about front running whales. And that is negative to the real economy: whether it be bear raids or it be creating instability in commodity prices or taking money from people who are buying for cashflow and value (and not for price).

I think you are trying to create a moral component to trading when there isn’t one. You can easily say: who cares if I contribute. I’m having fun, earning and not hurting anyone directly. You will be amazed at how many people say that on a bank trading floor.

If you are profitable you are by definition providing liquidity on the timescale you trade on. (Whether you actually use market orders or limit orders is actually irrelevant.)

Momo trading is generally only profitable when it contributes to price discovery as deviations from fair value will eventually (inevitably) revert. So if the momentum is going away from fair value, then the momentum trader will get losses when the reversion comes.



Personally I have no issue with it. I make way more in trading than I would with any other skill that I have, I just see this as the market telling me that I am more valuable to the economy as a trader.

I think it's best to just to evaluate it like any other business. I think you are adding a moral component on it that isn't real. There are certain types of behavior in markets which are anti competitive and anti productive (frontrunning, coercion, pump and dump, insider trading, selling fake information etc) If you are just trading and you aren't doing these then you should be confident that you are producing real value.

 

[murray t turtle]

should we ignore the fact that you helped create the panic sell off?

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LOL\that'$ who it was Good job, downtrend maybe a friend\but try not to do to many countertrends untill OCT bear killer month.....................................................................................................

 

[ZBZB]

What is a career though? A series of jobs working for the state or a capitalist? Do you have to get promoted to call it a career?

Not every company succeeds, not every trader succeeds.