The Wizzard of Lies, 8 pm EST

DallasCowboysFan said:
They had
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Nothing you said changes my opinion on that their behavour showed genuine surprise and hurt after Madoff's arrest. So I think they didn't know about the fraud, but my point is that they should have. One of the son's title was something like leader of trading operations.

Back in 2001 there were 2 separate articles (MAR Hedge and Barron's) questioning Madoff's strategy. There is zero chance they didn't read those articles and from then on, they should have asked questions. I understand why they didn't, I just can't accept the answer...
 
surprised that the scam got discovered ?
hurt that his dad did not manage to not get arrested?

One actually worked in his dad's business : I'd say this one certainly knew.
If the other had never been involved in trading: may be he did not know, nor understand
what Madoff was up to.
 
smallStops said:
One actually worked in his dad's business : I'd say this one certainly knew.
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It is an interesting ponderable who knew what and when. The authorities decided there was no evidence against the sons, thus they weren't charged. The conversations in the movie sounded pretty life like.

My bet is still on the "they were too dumb to know it" side...

At the end of the movie the female interviewer asked a good question: Your sons either knew it or you were endangering them in case you die and they would have gone to prison? Madoff didn't have a good answer to that.

I guess in that scenario Frankie could have testified that the sons weren't in on the scheme...

Apparently Madoff's brother Peter knew it and got 10 years...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_the_Madoff_investment_scandal
 
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This was a family business, where one son at least worked in a position where he had full access to
what was going on. These two were in line to take over the business : if Madoff had died 'honorably', they'd have inherited it all, and were in a position to ensure the business continuity.

Now, when the dad got caught, why would they volunteer to say they knew?
Madoff, certainly a good dad, might have decided to carry the whole responsability for it
for the sake of his sons.

I am actually wondering: could the scheme have been set by one of the sons?????
 
smallStops said:
Now, when the dad got caught, why would they volunteer to say they knew?
Madoff, certainly a good dad, might have decided to carry the whole responsability for it
for the sake of his sons.
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It is certainly a possibility, but again, no evidence for it. They NEVER set foot on the 17th floor.

Most Ponzis don't start out as a Ponzi, just the original plan (profitable trading) usually stops working and the leaders became addicted to money and fame. Since at that point it is rather easy to run the shop as a Ponzi because the money keeps flowing in due to previous good years. But that doesn't mean they started out as such. Plenty of such stories in CNBC's Greed series.

The sons were too young (early 20s) when Madoff already stopped real trading. One more argument for the sons: I don't think they would have endangered their families or they would have had a better escape plan in case of discovery. It is one thing for an old Madoff going to prison for the rest of his life and another for a son when he is only 40 with young children at home...

Ask yourself: You are running a Ponzi like that and you wouldn't have a plan B in case of discovery when you are 30-40 years old? Not to mention a capital protection plan in case of being sued? (even one of the son's child was sued)
 
Pekelo said:
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Ask yourself: You are running a Ponzi like that and you wouldn't have a plan B in case of discovery when you are 30-40 years old? Not to mention a capital protection plan in case of being sued? (even one of the son's child was sued)
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Hopefully, I am fully immunized against running ponzi schemes or trying schemes to defraud people or getting myself involved into anything illegal ( these real Catholic "endoctination" some say, do Wonder in showing you that it is not Worth it).

Now, if a father, his two sons, and his grandchildren are in a boat that is sinking: I think the father would rather sacrifice himself, and die, if that is necessary to save his sons and grandchildren. Now, I'd believe the same way of thinking must have been in play, as the sons worked in the dad's business. Too Young for Financial schèmes? have you not heard of teens defrauding naive investors in Financial market related activities? There is no lower age limit when it comes to 'sin'. Even a toddler can lie through his teeth.
 
Consider the fact that NONE of the accomplices turned on the sons, although they probably could have got a lighter sentence. It is possible though that their involvement wasn't known to the people on the 17th floor.

Here, I will help you making your case, because you had nothing concrete so far except suspicions:

http://www.cnbc.com/2014/07/15/madoff-trustee-alleges-madoff-sons-knew-of-fathers-fraud.html

"Among the new allegations:

  • Andrew Madoff created fake accounts for himself to show "assets" allowing him to purchase real estate.
  • Andrew and Mark's actual account statements from their deferred compensation plans showed returns that were clearly too good to be true—including returns of up to 24 percent in accounts where no actual trades took place.
  • Both sons received millions of dollars in payments disguised as loans from their parents—Bernie and Ruth Madoff."
Now I might have to change my bet to "they might have known something was not kosher, but didn't know the full details nor did they care."

Madoff used a Trump defense (also in the movie) when the sons asked too many questions, he attacked them instead of answering them. Ask yourself, you are rich, life is good, do you really want to rock the family boat based on suspicion?

-----------------------

In court only counts what you can prove. Suspicion is nice, evidence is better.
 
Ever Wonder why your US FBI is the biggest employer/funder of psychologists, psychiatrists researchers ?

I too discover very late how "psychology/spirituality" is key in trading and trading related things.
Also, normally very good judges/magistrates have the skills in getting people to confess, as they have first class understanding of "human nature".
They just have to hope to not come across an excellent one.
 
I watched the mini-series and nothing about Madoff surprised me in the least. Madoff is a psychopath. Everything he did fit the pattern of every psychopath. They all have an agenda that they run right under everybody's noses. They do not care who gets hurt in the process, they will actively hurt people if it forwards their agenda. They all kiss up to authority and treat people on their own level or lower badly. They all con everybody to play along continually. I'm fairly convinced that the sons were just conned into playing along. Psychopaths can keep people in a light trance sort of, they are astoundingly perceptive and live on an animalistic level because they never made the connection to their feelings like they were supposed to in infancy.

I've studied psychopaths up close and personal and published about them. I found that once you identify them as a psychopath it's best to stop marveling at their behavior and to find out what their agenda is, only then will everything fall into place. All the people surrounding Madoff never made that leap, if they had it would have been very easy to out him.
 
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