The Ugly Face Of Dementia

Giving these countries a NATO defense guarantee is foolish and only emboldens them to do irresponsible things. It is needlessly provocative, kind of like if Russia or China stationed troops in mexico.

Canadians and europeans have only a dim appreciation of this because the US has provided for their defense for so long.
I agree to a certain extent. My point is that you have to be hard on a country when they take over another country not criticize NATO. World war 2 started because we let Germany get away with this behaviour in the begiining. Without the USA holding back Russia they will continue to take over countries and expand their influence then one day it will be a big problem. Bottom line is Russian sphere of influence is increasing while Americas is shrinking.
 
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Why Paul is right on NATO and McCain is wrong
BY DANIEL DEPETRIS, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR - 03/16/17 01:00 PM EDT
rand_paul_john_mccain.jpg


This January, the Foreign Relations Committee recommended a vote to ratify Montenegro’s accession to NATO. This week, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) attempted to do just that, requesting unanimous consent that the Resolution of Ratification be approved by the full chamber without any more debate on the floor.

Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) objected to the request and then walked off the floor, leaving McCain so furious that he openly declared that the junior senator from Kentucky was in cahoots with Russian President Vladimir Putin to dismember NATO.

“The only conclusion you can draw when he [Paul] walks away,” McCain remarked on the floor, “is he has no justification for his objection to having a small nation be part of NATO that is under assault from the Russians.”

But McCain’s rationale is simple-minded and ultimately misguided.

Fortunately, the bullying tactics aren’t cowing Paul into submission. There is a strong case to be made for why Montenegro becoming the 29th member of NATO isn’t a good idea. At the very least, the Senate should have a full debate on the matter, exercising its powers of ratification.

NATO is the most successful military alliance the world has seen in modern times. Its cohesiveness during the Cold War prevented Soviet expansion into Western Europe, provided the U.S. with a sizable and geostrategically important beachhead to combat Soviet influence, and afforded Western democracies a security guarantee that any attack by Soviet forces would be responded to forthwith from every member of the alliance. Article 5 — “an armed attack against one … shall be considered an attack against them all” — was and continues to be the bedrock of the entire NATO structure.


Adversaries risk confrontation at their own peril.

Since the Soviet Union’s collapse in 1992, however, NATO has transformed from a security alliance that brought the U.S., Canada, and Europe together into a political club of “democracies” bounded by common governing principles. The liberal notion of spreading democracy has replaced the once clear-eyed security alliance with vital strategic objectives.

The expansion of NATO into Eastern and Southeastern Europe in the late 1990s and early 2000s wasn’t necessary for security. The Soviet Union collapsed years earlier; the Russian military was a shell of its former glory days; and the Russian state was so weak economically and riven by crime, corruption and terrorism that Moscow couldn’t afford to play the geopolitical game.

The inclusion of such Eastern and Southeastern European countries was about spreading the democratic project throughout Europe during a period dubbed “the end of history” rather than protecting these smaller countries from a foreign threat (let alone enhancing the strength of the alliance itself).

McCain is a relic of the past. His views on NATO, like his views on the use of force and when to leverage American military power around the world, resemble a Cold War mentality that is ill-suited for the 21st entury. To be fair, McCain isn’t the only lawmaker to hold these views; the foreign policy establishment has become so reflexively anti-Russia over the last several years that any policy that second-guesses how NATO operates is labeled as dangerous and naive.

Paul may be a minority in the Senate, but his view is much more practical and in line with the American people. For what, exactly, does Montenegro — a tiny country of less than 630,000 people, with a gross domestic product (GDP) of only $3.9 billion and an active military of approximately 2,000 troops — offer NATO that it doesn’t already have?

It’s difficult to see what the positives would be for Montenegro’s inclusion. The Montenegrin government spends 1.6 percent of its GDP on defense, short of the 2 percent threshold that NATO now uses as a guideline. As my colleague Charles Pena wrote last November, it would be unwise policy for the United States and the NATO alliance to take in yet another member that won’t contribute their fair share of the defense burden.

Currently, 23 of NATO’s 28 members contribute less than the 2 percent benchmark. Montenegro would add yet another dependent country to America’s coattails, while hardly making Americans safer.

And then there’s the Russia question. U.S.-Russia bilateral relations are perhaps their worst since the early 1980s, when Washington and Moscow were on the precipice of nuclear war. Russian officials have repeatedly argued that incorporating Montenegro into NATO would be a direct threat to their national interests — a not-so subtle hint that they would respond accordingly.

If the Trump administration does indeed want to deescalate tensions with Moscow and attempt to establish a pragmatic relationship with the Russians on issues of common concern, it’s difficult to argue how accepting Montenegro makes that goal easier to achieve.

Paul could have articulated this on the Senate floor and explained it to McCain — but the truth is, this isn’t news to senator from Arizona. He understands these issues and discounts them because he cares more about looking tough and flaunting America’s military than actually enhancing American security.

NATO is a security alliance, not a get-to-know-you club where everybody is accepted regardless of the regional circumstances and despite how insignificant a candidate’s acceptance will be.

Daniel R. DePetris is a fellow at Defense Priorities and a Middle East and foreign policy analyst at Wikistrat. He has written for The National Interest, Rare Politics and The American Conservative. Follow him on Twitter @dandepetris.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/defense/324310-why-paul-is-right-on-nato-and-mccain-is-wrong
 
Without the USA holding back Russia they will continue to take over countries and expand their influence then one day it will be a big problem. Bottom line is Russian sphere of influence is increasing while Americas is shrinking.

There is no evidence of this that I can see. They have long objected to US/NATO pushing up to its borders. Wouldn't we if the situation were reversed?

Of course these neighboring countries have disputes and in some cases legitimate ones against them. Are any of them worth our going to war with Russia over? I don't think so.
 
These are good points but as Cham
There is no evidence of this that I can see. They have long objected to US/NATO pushing up to its borders. Wouldn't we if the situation were reversed?

Of course these neighboring countries have disputes and in some cases legitimate ones against them. Are any of them worth our going to war with Russia over? I don't think so.


First Germany took over Austria, I guess the west felt they had legitimate complaint Then we gave them Czechoslovakia , I guess we felt they had legitimate complaint. What did everyone say? These countries are not worth going to war for. What happened......we got got a World War. We got the very thing we wanted to avoid. Why? Appeasement does not work. A serial murderer will not stop until he is caught. A bully will not stop unless you stop them. Putin will not stop on his own. The world order has collapsed, expect increasing turmoil and chaos around the world.
 
These are good points but as Cham



First Germany took over Austria, I guess the west felt they had legitimate complaint Then we gave them Czechoslovakia , I guess we felt they had legitimate complaint. What did everyone say? These countries are not worth going to war for. What happened......we got got a World War. We got the very thing we wanted to avoid. Why? Appeasement does not work. A serial murderer will not stop until he is caught. A bully will not stop unless you stop them. Putin will not stop on his own. The world order has collapsed, expect increasing turmoil and chaos around the world.

man, where are you coming from with your brainwashed messages?
Serial murder is the USA with its endless wars around the globe.

Russia has complained for 15 years for NATO expansion and US ignored

finally US staged the coup in Ukraine. What Putin did was very gentle in this situation.
 
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I agree to a certain extent. My point is that you have to be hard on a country when they take over another country not criticize NATO. World war 2 started because we let Germany get away with this behaviour in the begiining. Without the USA holding back Russia they will continue to take over countries and expand their influence then one day it will be a big problem. Bottom line is Russian sphere of influence is increasing while Americas is shrinking.
And China's isn't?

Who's more of a threat? 3 Trillion Russia. Or 11 Trillion China?
 
These are good points but as Cham



First Germany took over Austria, I guess the west felt they had legitimate complaint Then we gave them Czechoslovakia , I guess we felt they had legitimate complaint. What did everyone say? These countries are not worth going to war for. What happened......we got got a World War. We got the very thing we wanted to avoid. Why? Appeasement does not work. A serial murderer will not stop until he is caught. A bully will not stop unless you stop them. Putin will not stop on his own. The world order has collapsed, expect increasing turmoil and chaos around the world.
So this includes China too, right? With the spratley islands (90% claimed ownership of the south asian sea) and Taiwan?
 
These are good points but as Cham



First Germany took over Austria, I guess the west felt they had legitimate complaint Then we gave them Czechoslovakia , I guess we felt they had legitimate complaint. What did everyone say? These countries are not worth going to war for. What happened......we got got a World War. We got the very thing we wanted to avoid. Why? Appeasement does not work. A serial murderer will not stop until he is caught. A bully will not stop unless you stop them. Putin will not stop on his own. The world order has collapsed, expect increasing turmoil and chaos around the world.


So in your mind we park put troops on the russian border, in order to preemptively stop "World War 3" That sounds fucking brilliant. Cant see how Provoking Russia could possibly go wrong after all of our successes in the middles east. I cant even believe that this is the argument liberals are giving these days, all because it is the opposite of Trumps Idea.


How on earth could you convince yourself that your idea is more sane than the thought that we probably shouldnt get involved? (especially given our track record)

Pretty funny how the liberals who attack the disaster in Iraq, who have seen the disasters in Libya, Syria, Egypt, suddenly want to pick a fight with Russia. The only other people who are on your side are McCain, Graham, Obama and Bush, and hey why wouldnt you support them, Those guys have an incredible history of foreign policy success.

It will probably work out great with Russia too, when we try to premptively go to war with them in order to "maintain the peace", i mean look at the utopian society our "preemptive wars" in the middle east have created. Its all sunshine and lollipops over there from what ive heard.
 
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So in your mind we park put troops on the russian border, in order to preemptively stop "World War 3" That sounds fucking brilliant. Cant see how Provoking Russia could possibly go wrong after all of our successes in the middles east. I cant even believe that this is the argument liberals are giving these days, all because it is the opposite of Trumps Idea.


Yep, what you said.

They're willing to poke a prod a nuclear power because they think it gets back at Trump.

These people are lunatics.
 
So in your mind we park put troops on the russian border, in order to preemptively stop "World War 3" That sounds fucking brilliant. Cant see how Provoking Russia could possibly go wrong after all of our successes in the middles east. I cant even believe that this is the argument liberals are giving these days, all because it is the opposite of Trumps Idea.


How on earth could you convince yourself that your idea is more sane than the thought that we probably shouldnt get involved? (especially given our track record)

Pretty funny how the liberals who attack the disaster in Iraq, who have seen the disasters in Libya, Syria, Egypt, suddenly want to pick a fight with Russia. The only other people who are on your side are McCain, Graham, Obama and Bush, and hey why wouldnt you support them, Those guys have an incredible history of foreign policy success.

It will probably work out great with Russia too, when we try to premptively go to war with them in order to "maintain the peace", i mean look at the utopian society our "preemptive wars" in the middle east have created. Its all sunshine and lollipops over there from what ive heard.

No troops needed. Sanctions and solidarity. As long as they see that your strong, united and willing things will not escalate. That deterrent is gone now so it's open season for everyone, including China.
The war in Iraq happened because the Republicans were in power. They are back in power so expect another war or two or three. Trump does not have the brains nor the self control to prevent a war.
 
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