The Truth about Daytrading Futures..

[stockfrosty]

Ok first of all I can't speak for futures traders, because for one I don't trade futures and neither do any of my peer traders. But I can speak for NYSE stock trading. And I would like to point out that there are people day trading NYSE making consistent money nearly every day. One trader I know had 2 losing days in an entire year. And this was verifiable. This particular trader was the most consistent within the group but other traders in the group have been pulling numbers averaging about 230 winning days out of 255 odd traded in the year. And as you can imagine they are making a good living. They all use essentially the same trading set up and software and of course that is a big part of the edge. And yes, a few of them have made more than 1 million in year. (2 out of the group of 6 traders)

The point is that most who attempt to day trade aren't consistenly profitable (probably about 97% fail). But that 3% are out their and do exist. Obviously they are few and far between which explains why you haven't met any.

 

[EliteThink]

Speaking is absolutes often invites criticism, as we can see.

From a system point of view, the best systems (according to my own standard of course ) are swing systems. DT'ing systems are usually only marginally successful.

 

[lindq]

Quote from TMTrader:


Please explain how trading is different from any other business.

TM Trader.

It isn't any different. Most successful small businesses have days or weeks when the phone doesn't ring, or they don't meet their expenses. Then a good run makes up for it. Very seldom is there a solid income stream, and even then it usually doesn't last.

For years I ran a succcessful small business, and during days or weeks when my trading is slow and I'm not getting the volume of trades I want (like now), I always remind myself of the slow periods I had in my business, followed by the profitable pickups.

In business and in trading, the secret is staying alive, being patient, and waiting to take advantage of the right moment.

 

[randynutts]

Quote from lindq:



It isn't any different. Most successful small businesses have days or weeks when the phone doesn't ring, or they don't meet their expenses. Then a good run makes up for it. Very seldom is there a solid income stream, and even then it usually doesn't last.

For years I ran a succcessful small business, and during days or weeks when my trading is slow and I'm not getting the volume of trades I want (like now), I always remind myself of the slow periods I had in my business, followed by the profitable pickups.

In business and in trading, the secret is staying alive, being patient, and waiting to take advantage of the right moment.

wow this really helped me,, thank you :eek:

 

[dbTrader]

I think the thread is finally hitting the nail on the head. Trading is a business, businesses go through cycles, and, as any of you who have been in business or have read about new businesses, there is a huge failure rate. This is large part due to the large numbers participating in this massive marathon, the varying degrees of commitment, preparation, wherewithall (initial capitalization).

While the eminis do propose a massive challenge - it is because they are new, born of this new reality of electronic trading. There will always be those who will prevail, and far more who fail.

It is, just as the trading game we are in, a numbers game.

Sorry - didn't mean to become a poet on this intense thread.

 

[kgharris]

Quote from Trend Fader:

#1. NO such thing as making consistent money every single day daytrading. That is a biggest myth. NO such thing as making consistent money every week daytrading. I mean.. maybe you will break even a few times and make chump change.. but you will not make a living every single week.

You should not be so close minded to speak in such absolutes.

My name is Kevin, and I make consistent money every week daytrading QQQ. And, I make well over the 100K you mention as an example.

I do not live in NYC, but I do live in Northern N.J., about 10 minutes outside of NYC.

Nice to meet you.

 

[steeldust]

Quote from Trend Fader:

Here is a fact. I have never met or spoken to a single person that actually daytrades futures and makes real consistent money. Real money is atleast $100k a year consistently. (I live in NYC so I have a high cost of living.)

Yet I have met countless people that have made millions holding(long or short) stocks/futures for the longer run . These people have consistently every year.. made serious money. They did not make money every week or every month.. but at the end of the year they were way ahead of the crowd.

Here is what I have come to at the end of years of trading and years of seeing other traders succeed and go bust..

#1. NO such thing as making consistent money every single day daytrading. That is a biggest myth. NO such thing as making consistent money every week daytrading. I mean.. maybe you will break even a few times and make chump change.. but you will not make a living every single week.

Here is what traders want.... they want great liquidity.. super fast fills... no worries overnight... massive leverage, cheap commisions.. The answer to these needs is EMINIS. The only problem is that no one really makes a living daytrading them.

--MIKE

once i stopped trading the es contract and switched to bonds and currency futures, i have done well. not 100k but with my"regular job" i wouldn't have made that either. once i stopped being greedy and thinking i can make 3k a week i did very well.plus working for myself is worth a whole lot. i do make a living so i have no idea how you can just state your facts? did you do a research poll? or just angry?

 

[TGregg]

Quote from NihabaAshi:


To make a good guess...I would say their average income is about 65k per year.

Note: Living in Fort Wayne Indiana making 65k a year is a lot of dough especially if your debt free and you've paid off your house 3 years ago.

This has bothered me for a bit. Not that I plan to get rich, but I do expect to grow an income and a few years after I am a successful trader (as defined in Nihaba's post) I expect to reach a six digit income.

If I am not a successful trader, I expect a six figure income as a 7-11 stickup artist.

Seriously though, take for example a professional trader that I just made up. He makes about half a point/contract/trade net (give or take). He makes about three or four trades a day, say 2 points a day or about 500 points/contract/year. He trades about 3 contracts per trade, and probably makes about 70k/year (right in line with your estimate).

He's been earning a living by trading for more than 5 years. In other words, he's pretty much the traders you refer to above.

Now, why doesn't he slowly scale up? We're not talking trading 3 contracts on Monday, and 300 on Tuesday. We're talkin' one more. If he made $300 on a 3 contract ES trade, he surely could have made $600 if he had made the same trade on 6. Yeah, there are psychological issues, and (as somebody very respected once said to me) "You gotta earn size", but can't one scale up?

And if not, why not? And if so, why are they only making 65k? We're not talking obscene amounts of wealth here.

 

[bdixon619]

Quote from TGregg:



Now, why doesn't he slowly scale up? We're not talking trading 3 contracts on Monday, and 300 on Tuesday. We're talkin' one more. If he made $300 on a 3 contract ES trade, he surely could have made $600 if he had made the same trade on 6. Yeah, there are psychological issues, and (as somebody very respected once said to me) "You gotta earn size", but can't one scale up?

And if not, why not? And if so, why are they only making 65k? We're not talking obscene amounts of wealth here.

I can't speak for anyone but me. But, I've seen a lot of people in a lot of different professions besides trading. A lot of them I've talked with have their mortgages and their other debts and they have their families and there retirement goals and their vacations and their outings. They have a good life and they have respect for their professions and for their lives. For me, it comes down to this -- Respect. Maybe these guys all have respect for their source of income and like a good horse they don't want to work it to death. I know after a day of scalping, I feel great. After several days in a row I'm looking for ways to stay away from the computer. Maybe I'm not hardcore enough yet, I don't know.

 

[sixthbeast]

I also don't know a single futures trader who makes money consistently.