The Trader Conflict

N

NeoRio1

The most amazing aspect of trading and the biggest confliction in trading is not the actual process of trading. The biggest confliction in trading is the psychology behind how a person decides to become a full time trader. Not only is it the psychology behind how a person decides to try trading, but another surreal aspect is what a trader needs to do in order to become successful. It is truly a profession where a majority of people who start out need to actually mentally change themselves in order to become successful at it.

So we are at the beginning of the decision to become a trader. What type of personality, mentality (whatever you like to call it) actually tries to become a full time trader? Certainly the timid valedictorian who has been accustomed to following a straight and narrow path their entire life is not attracted to the profession of trading because they know the profession involves heightened risk and a confusing path that is unorthodox. The type of person who is attracted to the profession of trading is willing to take risks and may even like the idea. Another large majority are even gamblers and some are even reckless. The point is that a significant majority of start up traders are risk takers. If they weren't then they wouldn't be doing what they would be doing.

So what is a risk taker? A risk taker is willing to risk harm, loss or injury in the hope of gain or excitement. They don't follow the rules. They follow what attracts them at the moment. They may even do physical stunts such as sky diving or base jumping. They don't have any discipline because they know if they go all in with the risk and they make it out alive the reward will be amazing. A risk taker may take the risk of simply not conforming to society in order to conform to their own beliefs hence becoming a day trader. The bottom line is that somewhere either in the conscious or subconscious a trader starting out has some tolerance and even attraction towards risk.

Now let me ask you something. If you had a choice which set of adjectives do you value more? Do you value discipline, rules, structure and organization more? Or do you value fun, excitement, intensity and euphoria more? The truth is that a person who values discipline, rules, structure and organization is very unlikely of taking on the "risky" profession of day trading. On the other hand the person who values fun, excitement, intensity and euphoria is much more likely of taking on the profession of day trading. There is just one little problem. In order to become a successful trader you have to value discipline, rules, structure and organization.

Trading is a rare profession where a high majority of aspiring traders must actually change their value structure in order to yield success. To be a trader you must change the person you are.
 
An excellent post. Not to argue with you, but I love statisical outliers. What of the trader who so desperately wants to succeed that trading changes him without his conscious awareness? But kindly do continue. You are on a roll.
 
Quote from NeoRio1:

Do you value discipline, rules, structure and organization more? Or do you value fun, excitement, intensity and euphoria more? The truth is that a person who values discipline, rules, structure and organization is very unlikely of taking on the "risky" profession of day trading. On the other hand the person who values fun, excitement, intensity and euphoria is much more likely of taking on the profession of day trading. There is just one little problem. In order to become a successful trader you have to value discipline, rules, structure and organization.

Trading is a rare profession where a high majority of aspiring traders must actually change their value structure in order to yield success. To be a trader you must change the person you are.
More...

Great Post Sir

FWIW - I came from the disciplined, structured, narrow path - the one who hated risk

And

I've had to change... learn to embrace risk, while at the same time not becoming emotionally incapacitated by it


Redneck
 
Quote from NeoRio1:

The most amazing aspect of trading and the biggest confliction in trading is not the actual process of trading. The biggest confliction in trading is the psychology behind how a person decides to become a full time trader. Not only is it the psychology behind how a person decides to try trading, but another surreal aspect is what a trader needs to do in order to become successful. It is truly a profession where a majority of people who start out need to actually mentally change themselves in order to become successful at it.

So we are at the beginning of the decision to become a trader. What type of personality, mentality (whatever you like to call it) actually tries to become a full time trader? Certainly the timid valedictorian who has been accustomed to following a straight and narrow path their entire life is not attracted to the profession of trading because they know the profession involves heightened risk and a confusing path that is unorthodox. The type of person who is attracted to the profession of trading is willing to take risks and may even like the idea. Another large majority are even gamblers and some are even reckless. The point is that a significant majority of start up traders are risk takers. If they weren't then they wouldn't be doing what they would be doing.

So what is a risk taker? A risk taker is willing to risk harm, loss or injury in the hope of gain or excitement. They don't follow the rules. They follow what attracts them at the moment. They may even do physical stunts such as sky diving or base jumping. They don't have any discipline because they know if they go all in with the risk and they make it out alive the reward will be amazing. A risk taker may take the risk of simply not conforming to society in order to conform to their own beliefs hence becoming a day trader. The bottom line is that somewhere either in the conscious or subconscious a trader starting out has some tolerance and even attraction towards risk.

Now let me ask you something. If you had a choice which set of adjectives do you value more? Do you value discipline, rules, structure and organization more? Or do you value fun, excitement, intensity and euphoria more? The truth is that a person who values discipline, rules, structure and organization is very unlikely of taking on the "risky" profession of day trading. On the other hand the person who values fun, excitement, intensity and euphoria is much more likely of taking on the profession of day trading. There is just one little problem. In order to become a successful trader you have to value discipline, rules, structure and organization.

Trading is a rare profession where a high majority of aspiring traders must actually change their value structure in order to yield success. To be a trader you must change the person you are.
More...
I value "discipline, rules, structure" but your opposite or alternative of "fun, excitement, intensity and euphoria" are not the qualities required for trading success. They are emotions of wanting or trying to be successful.

There is a narrow path. Most do not find it. You see the plethora of tangents and distractions here at ET all the time. The narrow path is this: where is the money? How can I access it? In trading for the independent trader it is in the intraday gyrations (eg YM, ES, CL); you may call them swings or use other descriptions of the cycle of price movement. Most cannot see where the most money is per day. They are simply not going to engage the market. They are going to rely instead on escapist notions and approaches.
There is a dimension of which you would not be aware. It is professionalism. This is being clinical and logical and is shown usually in a corporate background to the player who is educated to university degree level.

Here at ET you have mainly loose ends. No offence intended to anyone but these are wannabes and has-beens, a collection of amateurs. There is nothing wrong in any of that of course. But if there is any conflict it is only the general failure to be savvy enough to know what you should be doing.
:)
 
Quote from Cheese:

I value "discipline, rules, structure" but your opposite or alternative of "fun, excitement, intensity and euphoria" are not the qualities required for trading success. They are emotions of wanting or trying to be successful.

There is a narrow path. Most do not find it. You see the plethora of tangents and distractions here at ET all the time. The narrow path is this: where is the money? How can I access it? In trading for the independent trader it is in the intraday gyrations (eg YM, ES, CL); you may call them swings or use other descriptions of the cycle of price movement. Most cannot see where the most money is per day. They are simply not going to engage the market. They are going to rely instead on escapist notions and approaches.
There is a dimension of which you would not be aware. It is professionalism. This is being clinical and logical and is shown usually in a corporate background to the player who is educated to university degree level.

Here at ET you have mainly loose ends. No offence intended to anyone but these are wannabes and has-beens, a collection of amateurs. There is nothing wrong in any of that of course. But if there is any conflict it is only the general failure to be savvy enough to know what you should be doing.
:)
More...

I appreciate the posts guys.

As for Cheese I never said the emotions/values of fun, excitement, intensity or euphoria are required for trading. I was saying the majority of people who decide to try and become traders value those emotions more than the qualities of rules and discipline.

The trader who values risk, fun and excitement HAS to learn to value the qualities of rules and discipline.

The small amount of people who value rules and discipline starting off have to learn to deal with risk such as redneck a few posts up.

This is the confliction and this is the reason I believe there is a high turn over rate when it comes to inexperienced traders.
 
I dont think there is one single person who succeeds at trading without changing themselves. This may or may not be the case with automated traders.
 
"The narrow path is this: where is the money? How can I access it? In trading for the independent trader it is in the intraday gyrations (eg YM, ES, CL); you may call them swings or use other descriptions of the cycle of price movement."

How do you measure those gyrations?
 
Quote from NeoRio1:

I appreciate the posts guys.

As for Cheese I never said the emotions/values of fun, excitement, intensity or euphoria are required for trading. I was saying the majority of people who decide to try and become traders value those emotions more than the qualities of rules and discipline.

The trader who values risk, fun and excitement HAS to learn to value the qualities of rules and discipline.

The small amount of people who value rules and discipline starting off have to learn to deal with risk such as redneck a few posts up.

This is the confliction and this is the reason I believe there is a high turn over rate when it comes to inexperienced traders.
More...

agree 100%.

as you might tell from my nic, i'm the guy who's primary lesson as a trader is to learn discipline. it's a constant struggle for me because it goes against my personality, but i've utilized techniques that have helped me...regular exercise, daily (mostly) meditation with visualization.

the other thing that gets in my way of making money is my ego....which makes me greedy (i've often held onto winners thinking they will become huge winners only to see it go back to breakeven or even a loss).
 
Quote from NeoRio1:
..I never said the emotions/values of fun, excitement, intensity or euphoria are required for trading.
More...
I never claimed you did require emotions of "fun, excitement, intensity or euphoria" in a trader. I simply wrote that they are not required.

And adding to what I wrote, no values matter for an independent trader if you cannot devise or adopt a reliable methodology to exploit successfully the daily market.
:)
 
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