Our "groups" were called in on that Tuesday as well...and were told to "keep trading, no matter what"....keep the markets alive. And, much like 9/11 we did our best to make two sided markets.
Don
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The tide is turning for the specialists!!!
- Thread starter Casey30
- Start date
Our "groups" were called in on that Tuesday as well...and were told to "keep trading, no matter what"....keep the markets alive. And, much like 9/11 we did our best to make two sided markets.
Don
Quote from Don Bright:
I agree with the "supply and demand" theory, but for it work properly, in my opinion, you must have some "place" some "where" for the orders to be sorted out and matched. So often, it is much better to simply "stop trading" the stock, let the outside influences settle down, have a new price re-opening.....vs. the wild swings of "stop triggers" (wait until traders get all their stops triggered, and then the stock bounces right back... as happens so often anyway...then we'll really have an outcry here on the board).
I really feel that we need some "responsible party" in the marketplace.
Good points, we shall all see over the next few years.
Don
Have to agree with Don here. I think 2744 CEO's might agree also.
Ok the whole deal here is that for those who spend the time looking for honest specialists who run their books in a semi transparent manner the more it makes sense to be a "surrogate specialist" and make money off that stock. That is why Don and other listed traders do not want it to go away.
For others who scan a list of stocks and consequently do not specialize in specialists, the NYSE is full of scumbag specialists who run their book in a dishonest manner, and do not honor the rules they claim to live by.
I personally think there should be zero tolerance in rules infractions. If that were to happen and specialists were just there to make markets and not trade against the publice the NYSE might be the place it claims to be.
All I know as the ranges contracted the theivery and rule breaking of the specialists in the large cap stocks increased. Because of that I think they are scum as a group.
Additionally the longer are markets allow for ineffiefficiences like multimillion dollar profits for speicialist groups and floor traders the easier it will be for Eurex and other groups to take over the trading markets of the world.
YOu have to ask yourself why should markets allow order takers to make hundreds of millions of dollars off the spread. That is the money day traders should be making.
For others who scan a list of stocks and consequently do not specialize in specialists, the NYSE is full of scumbag specialists who run their book in a dishonest manner, and do not honor the rules they claim to live by.
I personally think there should be zero tolerance in rules infractions. If that were to happen and specialists were just there to make markets and not trade against the publice the NYSE might be the place it claims to be.
All I know as the ranges contracted the theivery and rule breaking of the specialists in the large cap stocks increased. Because of that I think they are scum as a group.
Additionally the longer are markets allow for ineffiefficiences like multimillion dollar profits for speicialist groups and floor traders the easier it will be for Eurex and other groups to take over the trading markets of the world.
YOu have to ask yourself why should markets allow order takers to make hundreds of millions of dollars off the spread. That is the money day traders should be making.
Thanks for all your points. The bottom line for me is:
How can one expect a fair system, when the role of the Specialist is "to maintain and orderly market"....yet, the Specialist and its firm are in the business to make money???????
If Specialists were paid a salary (not a minimum wage job, but a good wage) and hired by the NYSE, I could see this working. Eliminate the profit motive, and the Specialist firms would throw in the towel.
It is ludicrous that these Specialist firms are PUBLIC companies. By definition, a public company is one that is business representing its investors, to make money.
Is the problem any clearer than this ????
Sorry guys, gotta get back to work and beat the hell out of a Specialist or 2..............
How can one expect a fair system, when the role of the Specialist is "to maintain and orderly market"....yet, the Specialist and its firm are in the business to make money???????
If Specialists were paid a salary (not a minimum wage job, but a good wage) and hired by the NYSE, I could see this working. Eliminate the profit motive, and the Specialist firms would throw in the towel.
It is ludicrous that these Specialist firms are PUBLIC companies. By definition, a public company is one that is business representing its investors, to make money.
Is the problem any clearer than this ????
Sorry guys, gotta get back to work and beat the hell out of a Specialist or 2..............
Quote from jem:
Ok the whole deal here is that for those who spend the time looking for honest specialists who run their books in a semi transparent manner the more it makes sense to be a "surrogate specialist" and make money off that stock. That is why Don and other listed traders do not want it to go away.
For others who scan a list of stocks and consequently do not specialize in specialists, the NYSE is full of scumbag specialists who run their book in a dishonest manner, and do not honor the rules they claim to live by.
I personally think there should be zero tolerance in rules infractions. If that were to happen and specialists were just there to make markets and not trade against the publice the NYSE might be the place it claims to be.
All I know as the ranges contracted the theivery and rule breaking of the specialists in the large cap stocks increased. Because of that I think they are scum as a group.
Additionally the longer are markets allow for ineffiefficiences like multimillion dollar profits for speicialist groups and floor traders the easier it will be for Eurex and other groups to take over the trading markets of the world.
YOu have to ask yourself why should markets allow order takers to make hundreds of millions of dollars off the spread. That is the money day traders should be making.
A couple of things here. Yes, we do focus on a couple of stocks, day in and day out.....that way the Specialist is a known factor to us, a member of our "poker game."
As you point out, when you "scan" for different stocks, then the problems multiply enormously.....you don't know how the Specialists work, and more important (IMO), you don't know the other dozens of "surrogate specialists" traders, who call that stock their "home."
It's not always the Specialist who yanks bids, every 5 seconds, pulls offers automatically every 4 minutes and 50 seconds, who "bluffs" the Level 2 screen or the NYSE open book, ....
as was said by a wiser one than I ...
"We have found the enemy, and He is Us!!"
We have found the enemy, and he is us
Protecting the Pagan communities while remaining true to ourselves.
by Samuel Wagar
while remaining true to ourselves. by Samuel Wagar. The Pagan ...
members.aol.com/swoodsong/enemy..html
(Makes some sense, doesn't it?)
Don
Quote from Don Bright:
A couple of things here. Yes, we do focus on a couple of stocks, day in and day out.....that way the Specialist is a known factor to us, a member of our "poker game."
As you point out, when you "scan" for different stocks, then the problems multiply enormously.....you don't know how the Specialists work, and more important (IMO), you don't know the other dozens of "surrogate specialists" traders, who call that stock their "home."
It's not always the Specialist who yanks bids, every 5 seconds, pulls offers automatically every 4 minutes and 50 seconds, who "bluffs" the Level 2 screen or the NYSE open book, ....
as was said by a wiser one than I ...
"We have found the enemy, and He is Us!!"
We have found the enemy, and he is us
Protecting the Pagan communities while remaining true to ourselves.
by Samuel Wagar
while remaining true to ourselves. by Samuel Wagar. The Pagan ...
members.aol.com/swoodsong/enemy..html
(Makes some sense, doesn't it?)
Don
don,
as always it does, well said!!
thank you
Quote from hayman:
Thanks for all your points. The bottom line for me is:
How can one expect a fair system, when the role of the Specialist is "to maintain and orderly market"....yet, the Specialist and its firm are in the business to make money???????
If Specialists were paid a salary (not a minimum wage job, but a good wage) and hired by the NYSE, I could see this working. Eliminate the profit motive, and the Specialist firms would throw in the towel.
It is ludicrous that these Specialist firms are PUBLIC companies. By definition, a public company is one that is business representing its investors, to make money.
Is the problem any clearer than this ????
Sorry guys, gotta get back to work and beat the hell out of a Specialist or 2..............
OK, good points, and I'm glad you're actually trading with the Specialists!!
I think that, in our open market system, that "everyone" is hoping to make a profit. Why doesn't IBM give us computers for their cost? (etc.)...
The only group that is supposed to be "not for profit" is the Federal Gov't (and that's working real well, great to be able to "print money."....our money!!).
Do we really want a "club" like the NYSE or the NASD to be in charge?? That club is comprised of, guess what, brokers and brokerage firms (and other "members")....so we would be right back to square one.
I want someone who has a good job, makes money, wants to continue doing so to be my (pick one) Specialist, Doctor, Lawyer, Banker, business partner, regulator, etc. I have a much higher comfort level knowing that the person on the other end would never risk theri 'cushy' job to screw me out of a lousy 5,000 shares or so....(does it happen, sure, often....? not really).
No one is "sucking" anyone into either marketplace, most traders jump at the chance to be a part of the most successful market system in the World.
Don
don I think I am back to disagreeing with your spin. The spin on this last one was so silly I do no know where to begin.
I do not want to compete with my lawyer or my doctor, I want them to be on my side. If they want to make money let them charge an upfront fee.
Imagine if my lawyer could step in front of my deals shop them around and then hold me to my bid if he did not like his profit potential. Hey its a free country and I did the majority of my business with them for five or six years, but unless they change- eurex or someone like them will own their butts in a few years.
Slk LaBranche and the others will have to concede they free money franchise or New York will have to concede they moniker as the worlds financial center. Its the nature of capitalism and I am concerned that our financial dinosaurs are going to lose out.
Now the real reason I suspect this is happening. As the specialists became more corporate they had to produce profits at a consistent level so the corporations could meet their numbers and their bosses could get their bonuses. When the posts were privately owned it was understood that you do not make as much money in a bear market. So this time relatively young punks without family honor and knowledge and a desire to keep the franchise going for the long run--- went out to make just as much money in slower conditions as they did during the bull.
Instead of being 10-20 percent of the volume and making some profit. They becamegreeedy pigs doing 30% of all transactions. So they screwed people more often and in a tighter environment and tighter spreads. Its one thing to screw people 10 percent of the time when everyone is making money and it is stupid to do it 30 percent of the time when people are struggling.
I do not want to compete with my lawyer or my doctor, I want them to be on my side. If they want to make money let them charge an upfront fee.
Imagine if my lawyer could step in front of my deals shop them around and then hold me to my bid if he did not like his profit potential. Hey its a free country and I did the majority of my business with them for five or six years, but unless they change- eurex or someone like them will own their butts in a few years.
Slk LaBranche and the others will have to concede they free money franchise or New York will have to concede they moniker as the worlds financial center. Its the nature of capitalism and I am concerned that our financial dinosaurs are going to lose out.
Now the real reason I suspect this is happening. As the specialists became more corporate they had to produce profits at a consistent level so the corporations could meet their numbers and their bosses could get their bonuses. When the posts were privately owned it was understood that you do not make as much money in a bear market. So this time relatively young punks without family honor and knowledge and a desire to keep the franchise going for the long run--- went out to make just as much money in slower conditions as they did during the bull.
Instead of being 10-20 percent of the volume and making some profit. They becamegreeedy pigs doing 30% of all transactions. So they screwed people more often and in a tighter environment and tighter spreads. Its one thing to screw people 10 percent of the time when everyone is making money and it is stupid to do it 30 percent of the time when people are struggling.
Quote from jem:
..........Now the real reason I suspect this is happening. As the specialists became more corporate they had to produce profits at a consistent level so the corporations could meet their numbers and their bosses could get their bonuses. When the posts were privately owned it was understood that you do not make as much money in a bear market. So this time relatively young punks without family honor and knowledge and a desire to keep the franchise going for the long run--- went out to make just as much money in slower conditions as they did during the bull...............
bravo........i have to say this makes as much sense as anything i have heard.
the argument that the specialist step in when no one else will is getting a little tiring. fine, let the market tank.....we have limits on the futures and the "plunge protection team", i'll take my chances. especially if i get a fair market for the next 16 years!!!!!! in regards to the specialist firms i think the old saying applies, "pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered"....now lets put some lipstick on this hog!!!!! or better yet a honey glaze.....