The Tao of Publias

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You know Dark I re-read your post and I must tell you that I really like it and find much truth in it...

BUT just for clarification purposes in case I have not made this entirely clear yet on this thread... When I say I am detached emotionaly from the results on an external basis (such as wins or losses) I am certainly not detached from the process itself...

For instance one thing that has been crucial to my success as a trader has been the ability not to force or strive to make anything happen. Most times I am very patient when it comes to striking on a play. I let them come to me in other words. Now sometimes I start to look at her during the day as if I were trying to get something from her and as a result I will start to force plays. I can detect very fast that I am falling into this folly and I will force myself to step aside and take a break. Since I am more of a trend follower this folly usually occurs during contraction or a range.

I like the analogy that you use of dashboard. When I am clearly out of synch I can detect this very fast through "emotion" and 95% of the time (yes I am not robot and still very fallible) I will step aside immediately for a break or call it a day. That inner peace that I speak of actually serves as my "dashboard", for when it is no longer there I start to feel emotion (frustration, internal resistance, or simply the feel of trying to do anything).

I am detached from the results, but certainly not the process... I just identify when I am out of synch internally and do not rely on results. Sometimes I will be forcing plays and they will work and I will still walk away and wait for the afternoon session, simply because through alot of 'kicks in the teeth' I know that it is just matter of time!

Anyway I just wanted to throw it out there. It is not a matter of shoving them in duffle bag as you would say, they are just not there when I am in synch or the "flow". When they are there I know I am no longer in the flow.

PEACE and good trading,
Publias
 
This is something I posted on the "Overtrading" thread a couple weeks ago and I think it better eplains what I meant by "forcing".

Personally I prefer the term "forcing" to "overtrading", I can never 'overtrade', but I do get into ruts where I am forcing...These ruts are almost always perpetuated by my selfish desires to get something from her, as if she were a keg a beer or a nice juicy philly cheesesteak. When I learned to approach her in a selfless manner and stop seeing her as some dragon to be slain, the "forcing" pretty much came to an end on its own accord. When I am sitting there during the day I DO NOT look or strive to do anything. I see her with soft eyes, much in the same way I would look at a Dali' painting or listen to a Coltrane song, the act is an end in itself...

Selfish creature constantly trying to get something from a selfless, indifferent, but indomitable one. How can there be anything but discord?
 
This is something I also posted a few weeks ago and I think this may better explain the Spoon boy analogy I keep using...


quote:
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Originally posted by dotslashfuture
I think it is natural for most people to hope that losing positions will come back, and to fear that winning positions will go against them.

But, that is exactly backwards
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Yes indeed this folly is in accord with the human condition, BUT in complete and utter discord with her...

We are selfish and needy and she is selfless and indifferent, how could there be any harmony???

Livermore put it nicely when he said that one has to learn to flip these two natural emotions, but IMHO he misses the point... Every time I read that quote I picture Neo trying in vain to bend the spoon when all he has to do is realize what the little boy is telling him to realize, the truth... that the spoon is not real, and as such it will be Neo that bends and not the spoon...



In other words I don't think one can just try to flip emotions or stuff them in a duffle bag or just tell yourself not to indulge them... You have to come to an understanding through direct experience where they no longer exist for you! When I say they are not real it is only because I not the spoon have bent in such a way that they are no longer there and then the spoon bent, hmmm now it sounds like some kind of koan :)

The understanding would be this;
The market has no idea where my position is or whether it is accomodating or hurting me. It is only my ego's selfish attachment to the position that is creating the fear or hope... Therefore fear and hope are not reality, they are not real, it is just my ego distorting my perception of reality... Therefore through understanding I came to understand that the spoon was not real and then it bent... In this way you see that you are not detaching yourself from reality, you have just come to see what the reality IS.

I dont shove my emotions into a duffle bag... It is just that through enough experience and lessons from the market they just stopped existing in the same manner as they once did...
 
Publias

I feel that there is little left to be said after that absolutely amazing distillation of knowledge by darkhorse. Darkhorse, I have spent years trying to explain my understanding of things to my zen friends and never came close to that almost perfect analogy of the mountain and trading. In fact threeiii (from reality trader) and I debated this subject where I stated that I have learned to use emotions as an indicator and that I actually like having them. But I just had not thought the subject through to point where I could have crystallized the debate the way you did in your last post.

Your work this weekend has skipped me ahead many hours of thought and now I can move even farther along on my path. So I thank you for that enormous contribution to this subject.

And I thank Publias for his time and emotion in being a great and worthy _____(I hesitate to use a word like adversary becsuse of its anti zen implication) for Darkhorse.

Finally, Darkhorse you should write a book but I wonder how many people want to read what you are offering?

By the way I was supposed to be attempting to code some discretionary trading thoughts into tradestation and this thread sucked me away too many times so I am going to have to stop looking at it for a while.
 
Originally posted by jem
Publias

I feel that there is little left to be said after that absolutely amazing distillation of knowledge by darkhorse. Darkhorse, I have spent years trying to explain my understanding of things to my zen friends and never came close to that almost perfect analogy of the mountain and trading. In fact threeiii (from reality trader) and I debated this subject where I stated that I have learned to use emotions as an indicator and that I actually like having them. But I just had not thought the subject through to point where I could have crystallized the debate the way you did in your last post.

Your work this weekend has skipped me ahead many hours of thought and now I can move even farther along on my path. So I thank you for that enormous contribution to this subject.

And I thank Publias for his time and emotion in being a great and worthy _____(I hesitate to use a word like adversary becsuse of its anti zen implication) for Darkhorse.

Finally, Darkhorse you should write a book but I wonder how many people want to read what you are offering?
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Jem you just said that you use emotion as an indicator and in this we are in complete accord with one another. When emotion comes I know I am out of synch and I step away or stop for the session(morning or afternoon).

And me and Dark are not even remotely close to being advesaries. Dark is a very intelligent person, maybe too intelligent (no diss Dark), and I think that is why we often think we are on the different pages when indeed we are in synch. I think this happens because what I say is so utterly simple, yet vague and poetic (like eastern wisdom) that the temptation to overthink it and make it something it is not arises...

Anyway Jem I look foward to hearing what you have to say, who knows maybe we can learn something from each other...

PEACE and good trading,
Publias
 
Publias: I assure you none of this was personal, As you know I am a macro driven big picture type of guy. After reading your clarifications I see it's entirely possible that our disagreement was merely in form/appearance rather than meaning/substance, if not a full bore misinterpretation on my part in the first place.

Jem: what can I say but thanks, that's pretty sweet praise for some ramblings on a lazy Sunday afternoon. I dig this board for the clarity that the debates provide and I'm glad other folks can get as much out of it as I.
 
Originally posted by darkhorse
As you know I am a macro driven big picture type of guy.
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I think that is precisely where we were misunderstanding eachother... and I did not realize it until tonight...

For instance when I say detached to wins and losses on micro-level and approach her in selfless manner... You should see the database I built to track macro level monetary performance :) With a click of a button I get expectancy, dd's, equity line curves, bar charts, I can go as far as to tell you my monetary performance on days I was comitted to my morning routine(workout, meditation,etc) and when I wasn't! Clicks of button I can tell you my epectancy on every single set-up I apply...

Surely I wasn't trying to imply that I don't care if I don't make money... I have mortage, car insurance, car payments, etc just like everybody else... But most importantly money is the only thing to insure I get to come back and play tommorrow!

PEACE my friend,
Publias
 
Books Books Books.....you gotta love them....

Be put in CM for 6 months and you have no choice but to detach.....my quote...not that of Einstien or Gita.

Seeing your Dad for the last time as he puts you on a boat to USA u have no choice but to attach......my quote... not that of Poe or Hemingway...

that is the reason I asked the question ( do you have kids Mr.Publias?? ) to Publias in the first place ( I have a Son and it is hard not to be attached).....books will be books...I agree with alot that Darkhorse is saying ( going thru the highs and lows of life).....

Publias.....last thing...to imply that Phil Jackson and his Zen have brought him coaching success is crazy.... for the real reasons to his glorious coaching career you need not look further than....Air Jordan and The Shaq foo... :D

Peace... :D
 
They "love" you one day hate you the next... What can you do?

Originally posted by ElCubano
I love some of the great posts written by, Kymar, Publias.
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Peace health and good trading along your journey El Cubano...

Publias
 
Originally posted by Publias
They "love" you one day hate you the next... What can you do?
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LOL come on now P, that should be a softball

ya goes your own way and ya don't care what the masses say....

God's standards first...my own second...friends and family's third...everybody else, y'all waitin' for a bus ain't never gonna come...the day i try to cadge self esteem from a message board is the day i go to my cat for psychoanalysis
 
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